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  1. #1
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default 101312 usurpation attempt

    photos to come
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    these are hives 1 - 3, from left to right.

    3 was the intended target for usurpation, but they turned on 2, after i blocked 3's entrance.

    notice the small beard on the lower left corner of 2

    1 seemed to be oblivious to the whole thing.

    the queen was found on the ground, in the area directly beneath the hives, and between 1 and 2.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 10-13-2012 at 07:49 PM. Reason: notice the beard
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    anybody care to venture a guess as to what strain of queen that is? my bees are sort of dark, but not that dark.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Lebanon.PA
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    137

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Your looking for guesses so I'll take a stab and say old time European black bee's.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    hmmm. maybe, huh. my neighbor says he used to see these occaisionally many moons ago. he called them 'german black bees'. i need to call him. are these the same as amm?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Livermore, CA
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    1,345

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    From what ive read the german blacks are pretty aggressive!!
    Coyote Creek Bees

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeGhost View Post
    From what ive read the german blacks are pretty aggressive!!
    yeah, that's what i remember my neighbor saying about them too, (haven't had a chance to talk to him yet). since ahb's are bad about usurping hives and also mean, i am wondering if this is a combined genetic trait shared by the mean old black bees and ahb.

    i am also wondering if i could have dna testing done on this queen. i though about checking with the folks down at auburn university about it.

    it would be nice to know if this is a survivor of those old dark bees, or maybe the ingress of ahb genes.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  9. #9
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    Sep 2009
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    Myrtle Beach, SC, USA
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    857

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Looks just like it would bee local feral stock. Ask MB, he talks about his local feral bees being dark.
    https://www.facebook.com/stevesbees99
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    i am assuming that these are feral, maybe from the old dark bee i have heard about. which mb?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    just discovered that wikipedia identifies the 'german black bee' as amm. how cool is that. plus, they are described as being 'runny' on the frames, another characteristic in common with ahb.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  12. #12
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    Sep 2009
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    What is amm?
    https://www.facebook.com/stevesbees99
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  13. #13
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    Aug 2011
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    Landing, NJ, USA
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    197

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    amm = apis mellifera mellifera

  14. #14
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Years ago I used to work with AMM's, they did not try to usurp other hives.

    Also, if it was a usurpation attempt, the dead queen would likely be from the target hive rather than the attacker. I think the queen is a carniolan, not that it's really possible to tell from the pic, but just there's not many AMM's around now, anywhere varroa has gone.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #15
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    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,103

    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Fusion Power on this site says there are Amm in his area...he's in AL or LA.

    I would guess they're AHB if it was truly an attempt at usurpation. Wing vein patterns can be checked for % probability of african genes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Years ago I used to work with AMM's, they did not try to usurp other hives.

    Also, if it was a usurpation attempt, the dead queen would likely be from the target hive rather than the attacker. I think the queen is a carniolan, not that it's really possible to tell from the pic, but just there's not many AMM's around now, anywhere varroa has gone.

  16. #16
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    Wouldn't Occum's Razor indicate AHB. A. AHB are known to do this, usurp. B. German Black Bees, aka apis mellifera mellifera are not known to usurp. C. Amm are extremely rare is not nonexistant anymore. Therefore, does it not follow that this is probably an AHB invasion?

    Like Michael Palmer wrote, they can be tested to determine %AHB. Collect a sample of bees from under the bottom board into a jar of alchohol and send them to be tested. Check w/ your State Apiarist for how best to do that.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    oldtimer, the queen is dead because i killed her. she was in a very small cluster below the hives, apparantly waiting for the usurpation to play out.

    mp, i would like to have someone check this queen out, any suggestions? fusion power is in the next county over, maybe he will chime in.

    mark, luckily, i caught this happening not long after it started. there were maybe 50 - 100 dead bees on the ground below hive 3. i thought about saving some, but i assumed it would have been a mix of usurpers and hive 3 bees.

    another thought.... there have been several very small swarms issuing from hives in my area within this last several weeks. i determined that one of these from my yard was not a reproductive or overcrowding swarm, but rather a supercedure where the queen left with a few 'loyal attendents', as walt wright put it.

    could this usurpation attempt really just have been one of these fall supercedures desperate for a place to go?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  18. #18
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    The invasion of another hive is not a characteristic of any bees other than AHB as far as I know. Collect as many bees as you can and have them tested. That's the only real way to know for sure.

    Good luck.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  19. #19
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    mark, that's what i thought too, but then i found this:

    http://www.honeybeesuite.com/usurpat...-over-another/

    could it be that some of the genes, and some of the traits, are trickling up this far?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  20. #20
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: 101312 usurpation attempt

    ok, i was able to rake out at least 200 dead bees that were clogging the entrance after i took the screen off. now i have to figure out where to send the sample.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

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