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  1. #361
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Have you tried John Kefuss' ideas and how did they work for you?

    I think I would have died when I was 12 and not passed on my apendisitis genes. But I didn't. I'm not sure what you are getting at. That people should do that w/ their bees or that they shouldn't?

    How does painting the insides of boxes keep SHB out?
    What is it in grapefruit leaves that when burned they keep mites down?
    Yet you advocate feeding? Seems like knowing how and when to take only enuf honey from your bees would mean not having to feed. Wouldn't that be preferable for a hobby beekeeper?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  2. #362
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,748

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    ...what do you believe is functionally different between "commercial pesticides" and, say, smoking with grapefruit leaves? If the leaves are actually effective, wouldn't it lead to the same results? Likewise with feedging.

    Deknow

  3. #363
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I have always maintained that a natural resistance must already exists. Maybe some scientist could show me another way to see this? Sergey?
    I mist this one - of coarse, natural resistance exists, it is called immunity. It did not work 100% time, but it is quite robust. The problem with immunity is that it takes up to 10 days for immune system to respond on pathogen in full force. If pathogen is in huge amount - it could kill before immune system kills the pathogen... this is why the initial concentration of the pathogen is important. Immune system keeps us alive every moment. Same - for bees. Sorry for delay - this thread is humungous - I could not catch up!

    Well, it seems to me I mixed up - Mark, are you talking about natural resistance of the AFB to antibiotic? My passage above is for "natural resistance" of the victim, not pathogen. As for pathogen - this survived in antibiotic AFB is a "super-bacteria", which travels to another host and kill, kill, kill... this is why fire is used - because, pathogen already turned into super-pathogen, which is not completely destroyable by antibiotic.
    Last edited by cerezha; 10-23-2012 at 01:34 AM. Reason: confused with Mark's statemen
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #364
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Have you tried John Kefuss' ideas and how did they work for you?...
    Mark, as a businessman, you should pay respect to Kefuss - he is selling his special breeder queens for 650E each! He managed to turn his approach into profit. I am impressed!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  5. #365
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Ha! So hoopla can pay!

    Bit like hoopla around supposed "chemical free" honey can pay, in the hands of a skilled spin doctor!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #366
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post

    Well, it seems to me I mixed up - Mark, are you talking about natural resistance of the AFB to antibiotic?

    That there are AFB strains which naturally have differentr levels or fdegrees of resistence to the effects of Terrimycin.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  7. #367
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Mark, as a businessman, you should pay respect to Kefuss - he is selling his special breeder queens for 650E each! He managed to turn his approach into profit. I am impressed!
    I don't disrespect Mr. Kefuss, I'm just asking. Apparently he is a good businessman. Hundreds of other breeders of special breeder queens are too. Breeder queens commonly sell for something similar to what you report Kefuss getting. And more, thousands. So, I'm not surprised.

    I know people who have paid that much for breeder queens and have traveled thousands of miles to retreive them.

    How much does he sell his regular queens for, the nonbreeder queens?

    Maybe I need to learn more about Mr. Kefuss before I ask anymore questions about him because asking questions so often make people think I am being critical, when actually I don't know the answer to the question.
    Last edited by sqkcrk; 10-23-2012 at 04:40 PM.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  8. #368
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
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    177

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I don't disrespect Mr. Kefuss, I'm just asking. Apparently he is a good businessman. Hundreds of other breeders of special breeder queens are too. Breeder queens commonly sell for something similar to what you report Kefuss getting. And more, thousands. So, I'm not surprised.

    I know people who have paid that much for breeder queens and have traveled thousands of miles to retreive them.

    Maybe I need to learn more about Mr. Kefuss before I ask anymore questions about him because asking questions so often make people think I am being critical, when actually I don't know the answer to the question.
    I just googled "john kefuss bees" and found a lot of links including bee journal articles. You'll probably do better reading for yourself...lots of goodies to absorb!

    Ramona

  9. #369
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,755

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post

    Maybe I need to learn more about Mr. Kefuss before I ask anymore questions about him because asking questions so often make people think I am being critical, when actually I don't know the answer to the question.

    Ask Kefuss directly: jkefussbees@wanadoo.fr
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  10. #370
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,151

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    because asking questions so often make people think I am being critical, when actually I don't know the answer to the question.
    Is that how it works? I always thought it showed a thirst for knowledge. I guess people's brain are wired differently.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #371
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    It's about how things come across on the net Ace. I'm very careful before asking for links any more because I have been accused of "putting people on the spot", and "intimidating" people. I'll tend to google first then if all else fails then I'll ask for a link if I think it won't cause offence.

    Likewise the motive behind a question can be totally misinterpreted.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #372
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Randy Oliver is asking treatment free beekeepers to monitor varroa mite counts monthly and report the findings to him. Kim Flottum sent out the request via his e-blast. Are any of you interested in doing this and helping Randy Oliver?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  13. #373
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    that's extremely cool mark, probably worthy of a new thread of it's own.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #374
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Randy Oliver is asking treatment free beekeepers to monitor varroa mite counts monthly ...
    I used to do sticky board/24hr. I have numbers for perhaps 6-7 months. Since I noticed wax moth activity, I replaced sticky board on oil pan and could not count. My mite counts were quite stable - around 50 for the large hive and 7 for smaller beehive, which swarmed, had difficulties to establish the queen and never produce any honey to me, but doing well. Last count in the end of July was actually 20 for the large one and 5 or 7 for the small one. Based on my experience, the mites count on the sticky board should be somehow normalized to the size of hive - bigger hive should have a higher numbers because more bees, larva etc. My bees clearly have a habit of cleaning themselves and each-other, so I believe that my "mite counts" represents the number of mites removed from the adult bees. For proper "scientific" count, one should use standardized test like ethanol method or Germans just freeze number of bees and than mix them with ethanol or water (forgot). There were link in some thread to very informative German video how they propagate mite-resistant stocks. They have a national program for this.
    I am reluctant to do a real mite-count tests on my bees because being "feral"/survivor, they are quite sensitive to the invasion into the hive. But, once I remove oil pan, I will continue to do sticky board on regular basis - it just helped to me to monitor overall bees well-being without invasion.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  15. #375
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
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    2,963

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Randy Oliver is asking treatment free beekeepers to monitor varroa mite counts monthly and report the findings to him. Kim Flottum sent out the request via his e-blast. Are any of you interested in doing this and helping Randy Oliver?
    I have already e-mailed Randy that I intend to do monthly counts and send him results as he requested.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  16. #376
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,151

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Randy Oliver is asking treatment free beekeepers to monitor varroa mite counts monthly and report the findings to him. Kim Flottum sent out the request via his e-blast. Are any of you interested in doing this and helping Randy Oliver?
    I am all for the research but I question how valid it is if you only have one or two hives. Can that be compared to a commercial beekeeper that may have 30 or 40 in an apiary? My thinking is the mite counts might be lower if you only have a few hives in the apiary. Heck, maybe that is what the data will show. Well, you would have to run that hypothesis.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #377
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,132

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    for smaller beehive, which swarmed, had difficulties to establish the queen and never produce any honey to me, but doing well.
    Isn't that an oxymoron?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #378
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,812

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    I might be persuaded to help Mr. Oliver, but found little value in how many mites died, was more interested in how many will be born.

    Crazy Roland

  19. #379
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    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    2,308

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    I'm conflicted... I'd like to help, but... I've had treatment free bees for 6 years now, and have never done a mite count. My hives simply survive. Not sure how a mite count now from my apiary would help...though it might... still, the hives have lived. Maybe I should be more curious, but I've had serious time constraints this year especially.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  20. #380
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,284

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    that's extremely cool mark, probably worthy of a new thread of it's own.
    And so I started such a Thread. Y'all come.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



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