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  1. #261
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    steven, no, it's not always done that way.

    jb, how 'bout this:

    you've been giving your dog periodic baths in an organically produced all natural shampoo that keeps the fleas on your dog knocked back.

    you get a new neighbor with a dog, and every three months, they put on a new flea collar that contains every carcinogen know to man but it kills the fleas. your dog and the new neighbor's dog play all the time and no one has fleas.

    then another new neighbor moves in, and has a long haired dog that is nothing but a flea factory. this neighbor doesn't believe in doing anything for the fleas. all three dogs now run together all the time.

    the flea collar is doing the trick, but you are now having to shampoo your dog every day, and even then, the fleas are now in your house.

    would you consider having a talk with the third neighbor? would you buy a flea collar? would you take your dog down the road and let 'em out?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #262
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    Panama City, Florida, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    That is about right Squarepeg.

    When the dog comes over to do his business in your yard, you could open feed it with the flea birth control that is on the market.

    Then since he is not paying attention to his dogs fleas, he may think he has a flea proof dog and his methods are working perfectly. And since it works so well, he may try and convince others to use his method. Then sell offspring of his flea proof dog as a better breed.

  3. #263
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    steven, the longer answer is that the premise of your question implies that everyone who is not a tfb applies mite treatments twice a year before and after honey harvest. this is obviously not the case.

    it's just as incorrect to suggest that every tfb practices the bond method.

    what i see out there is more of a continuum of practices.

    not to repeat, but it makes more sense to talk about it as ipm, with tfb being the goal, and hopefully the end result of good beekeeping practice.

    nobody is treating for bragging rights, or because it is fun and cheap.

    what if you had, say, $350,000 (or any meaningful amount, your life savings?) invested in bees, boxes, trucks, forklifts, packing house ect.? assume you are married with 12 kids, and they all depend your your bee operation to survive.

    trying to place beekeepers in an either/or category might be like fitting a square peg in a round hole.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #264
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    trying to place beekeepers in an either/or category might be like fitting a square peg in a round hole.
    Careful Squarepeg, If someone only has a hammer, they may force a squarepeg in a roundhole.



    Oh wait, that would take a screwdriver, or a hammer....

    (sorry for the off thread humor)

  5. #265
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    sorry jb... but that analogy doesn't work for me, as the dog is incapable of housekeeping, which is apparently what the bees do to control the mites.

    squarepeg, excellent points.
    Also, if I had $350,000 invested in a bee business, I'd be darn well sure part of it was located in Florida so I could winter down there!
    Seriously though, if I had that kind of money invested in a bee business, I'd set aside one of my apiaries as a test for treatment free bees. I'd run the test for about 5 years, and if it was a success (by that the bees survived, and produced honey, and expenses and labor were lower than treating)then slowly change all my bees over to treatment free bees. I would not be surprised if in a couple of years some commercial beekeepers don't do just that...some perhaps already are.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  6. #266
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    steven, zactly!

    jb,
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #267
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    Oct 2009
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    Panama City, Florida, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    sorry jb... but that analogy doesn't work for me, as the dog is incapable of housekeeping, which is apparently what the bees do to control the mites.

    Steven
    Ever seen a dog scratch? How about using it's teeth the de-flea itself? How about casting a deformed pup aside and not feeding it?..

    But is is just an analogy, and as all all it is imperfect. Not really an attempt to solve anything. We will all probably continue to keep bees as best we can.

    Cheers,

    jeb

  8. #268
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    That reminds me. I was going through my top bar hive (which is a cross combed mess) yesterday. Removed a piece of comb they had attached to the floor. There was a wax moth larva there. Small. On the the workers grabbed it and flew away with it, before I could squish it.

  9. #269
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    So, when you write about treatment free bees and treatments you are only writing about treating for varroa and nothing else?
    Mark, at this point yes... I have given my bees HBH...haven't given anything else in about 5 years though.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  10. #270
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    I always fret while I am pushing a bee that is harassing a SHB out of the way so I can kill the beetle. Wonder if I am discuraging good behavior.

  11. #271
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Gotcha Jeb... I always used flea collars and baths for my dogs though... they were house dogs, and never seemed to get ahead of the fleas.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  12. #272
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by jbeshearse View Post
    I always fret while I am pushing a bee that is harassing a SHB out of the way so I can kill the beetle. Wonder if I am discuraging good behavior.
    try not to loose too much sleep over it jb.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #273
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Steven,

    Funny thing is, I used to live in a house that had neighbors on both sides. Niether did a good job of knocking the fleas down and I always had fleas in the yard and house, no matter how many times I treated. If I didn't treat, they were horrendous.

    I moved to my current location with no neighbors with dogs. I have two dogs, three cats. Pretty much never have fleas. I do use a treatment on the dos and cats sporadically, but only if I start to see any fleas. (attribute it to the roaming cats that come through the neighborhood.

  14. #274
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    May 2012
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    Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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    90

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    what if you had, say, $350,000 (or any meaningful amount, your life savings?) invested in bees, boxes, trucks, forklifts, packing house ect.? assume you are married with 12 kids, and they all depend your your bee operation to survive.
    I would like to think I would use the same intentional and dedicated hive management for my four hives that I would practice if I had a $350,000 operation, but I could be wrong. Then again should we all not do our best, no matter what?

    And it continues...
    Greg Barnett
    7a

  15. #275
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    Calvert, Md,USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Wow, look what happens when you go to bed.
    SG, appreciate it. I seem to fall into the 5 % a lot and I'm ok with it. I might give the same advice but an encouraging caveat depending on circumstances.
    Entrances on my hives are too small to allow the neighbors dogs in. LOL

  16. #276
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    Sep 2012
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    Jamesville, NY
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    273

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    Mark, at this point yes... I have given my bees HBH...haven't given anything else in about 5 years though.
    Regards,
    Steven
    Wouldn't using HBH be considered treating (I suppose that this would go by your definition of treating)? From what I read it has essential oils in it.

    on your blog attempt for treatment free you note:

    2. “No Treatment” means I shall not put any medications in my hives. Nothing for mites, nothing for Nosema. No essential oils, no powdered sugar dustings, no treatments of any kind.


    As a new guy I am just trying to determine which is the best way to start so I am not trying to push a semantics agenda, just curious.
    Last edited by Beelosopher; 10-15-2012 at 10:19 AM.

  17. #277
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    Oct 2012
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    Norfolk, VA
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    166

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Steven, What do you have against roaches? Maybe their hygenic.

  18. #278
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    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Beelosopher, I did give HBH, once in a feeding to the hives a few years back...not since... Is there a difference in a "treatment" given externally, versus one such as HBH which is consumed internally by the bees? Since HBH is given in sugar syrup or patties... just a thought...

    bbrowncods, I actually like roaches...especially the big ones, as they're rather crunchy underfoot. (I see you're in Kabul, I do earnestly hope you return home safe and sound)
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  19. #279
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    Sep 2012
    Location
    Jamesville, NY
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    273

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    Beelosopher, I did give HBH, once in a feeding to the hives a few years back...not since... Is there a difference in a "treatment" given externally, versus one such as HBH which is consumed internally by the bees? Since HBH is given in sugar syrup or patties... just a thought...

    Regards,
    Steven
    Hey your guess isas as good as mine

    Moreover I am just trying to sort out my strategy for the spring and decide what I should do (I think I have a line in on 2-3 nucs that are treatment free local survivors). It seems like a lot of people who claim non treatment have treated at some point (or what may be deemed as a treatment by some). So I am trying to decide if an IPM approach like Randy Oliver's is more appropriate than an absolute "no treatments ever." Having no real experience with bees leaves me to learning and relying like others like yourself who have made a go at a version of treatment free. My goal is to learn about most of those nuances, which can be difficult to extrapolate when you aren't working with that person daily.

    I am also trying to determine if 2-3 hives is too few to manager a treatment free regiment.

  20. #280
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    beelosopher, sounds like a perfectly responsible approach, best of luck to you!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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