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  1. #221
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Native pollinators face the same reduced forage range that managed pollinators (honey bees) do. Beekeepers need to be aware of that. That's my point. Understand?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #222
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Yes. Exactly.

    You're right on top of each other.

    Except, you can always order new Honeybees.

    Some of those native bees are so rare, there's the risk of local extinction.

    Here's a link to a study on bumble bee diversity in the U.S. :

    http://www.farmlandbirds.net/sites/d...%20al_2011.pdf
    Last edited by WLC; 10-12-2012 at 04:34 PM.

  3. #223
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    Jun 2010
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    Stillwell, KS
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    625

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Whether a beekeeper causes a swarm or not, it's no longer their property if it's not in their equipment.


    I still think that the environmental impact of TFB on native pollinators is the key issue that undermines any 'environmentally responsible' claims made for TFB.

    In other words, if you don't follow standard practices while keeping exotic pollinators (like Honeybees), you are responsible for the environmental impact.

    You made a choice, like using the Bond protocol, and you negatively impacted a native species.

    There's no excuse for it. It's a fatal flaw.

    WLC, I wanted to say "I think you have been surrounded by concrete breathing smog too long and need to get out of the city" but instead I'll just say I think you are just making excuses.

    I keep nothing but local feral derived captured bees and we have an abundance of managed hives, feral colonies and local pollinators. The local pollinators are so thick I view them as the competition.

    Where’s your concern over the damage Roundup ready crops, and systemic pesticides are causing our local pollinators.


    Don

  4. #224
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    Jun 2010
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    Stillwell, KS
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    625

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    I really don't care that others treat, but I also find it ironic that the folks who are suggesting that I'm irresponsible managing treatment free hives, see no problems with:

    Feeding their bees sugar, HFCS, and pollen substitutes
    Apply treatments and antibiotics as preventive measure
    Import packages and queens from known areas with AHB and small hive beetles
    Recycle wax full of known miticides and chemicals
    Pack 30 - 50 hives into a yard, where they share water sources
    Propagate bees that can only survive with treatments

    And I could go on and on

    Please folks, we are all on the same team and the vast majority keeping treatment free hives I would venture a guess have less than 5 hives, and in total hive count we are probably out numbered 100 to 1.

    Don

  5. #225
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Have you even thought of asking what the environmental impact might be of raising TFBs?

    Of course, it might be less in an agricultural area when compared to a metropolitan area because of lower biodiversity.

  6. #226
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,461

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    ....What I do predict is that the whole issue of 'environmental impact' will become more commonplace in discussions concerning TFB....
    I was reading this whole post and reading .. and reading... it is just cycling - the same repetitive questions and the same repetitive answers from the same people.

    We need to remember that EHB is invasive species in America. That's it! EHB itself presented huge 'environmental impact' to native species. Any EHB could compete with wild species and transfer deceases to them - in exact way how Europeans transfer diseases to native people in America. It is kind of double-standards: one is concerns about 'environmental impact' of a few non-treated beehives and at the same time did not see a bigger picture, how EHB occupied wild habitats in America and endanger wild species. If DWV is transferable from EHB to wild species - it really does not matter if it comes from treated or non-treated beehive, it is very alarming anyway! For environmentalist in particular. But keep in mind that real "environmentalist" is likely to recognize EHB as an invasive specie and would act accordingly. References to 'environmental impact' in this thread I think is not really honest because any managed beekeeping is not green at all by definition (managed). If somebody wants to minimize EHB impact, there are lot of things may be done: create artificial habitats for wild species (search Google), plant native plants etc., but it is entirely different story. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #227
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Have you even thought of asking what the environmental impact might be of raising TFBs?
    To what point? People on beesource.com are keepers of Honey bee, not bumbles or hylictidae or sweat bees. Sure, we can be concerned w/ the impact of what we do as beekeepers, how our bees effect other flying, pollinating, stinging, hymenoptrous insects, but we are going to keep bees. That's what we do. What do you expect beekeepers to do once they have considered the environmental impact of raising TFBs?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #228
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Starkville, MS, USA
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    82

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Wasn't the Deformed Wing Virus identified in the USA prior to the arrival of the Varroa mite?

    Inquiring minds want to know...

  9. #229
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Let me look that up. I think you are correct.

    First isolated in Japan w/ varroa jacobsonii. "the mite transmits the virus in the same way as acute paralysis virus (Ball 1989)." No reference as to when it first occured in the US. But, apparently varroa are required to transmit the virus.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #230
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    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    2,682

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    What's Round-up ready crops have to do with it? Glyphosate is a lot less toxic than most of the other herbicides farmers would be spraying w/o it.

  11. #231
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    sqkcrk:

    If someone is touting that TFB is greener or even more 'organic' than beekeeping using standard practices, then they can't say that when environmental impact is taken into account.

    What do I expect TFB beekeepers to do? How about discussing the risk openly and honestly without the usual shenanigans?

    No, varroa isn't required to transmit DWV. Varroa is infected with its own recombinant version of DWV/VaDV-1 which it injects directly into to Honeybees.

    sergey:

    When is the last time that you recall anyone discussing the environmental impact of any form of beekeeping? Discussing it maybe once a year isn't that painful. By the way, I have done the type of conservation work that you speak of.

    When I asked myself the impact question, and then researched the literature, the risk became apparent. By the way, I still rarely get straight answers from TFBers when I ask them.

    Kindly stop implying that TFB is greener than other forms of beekeeping. It's not. In fact, I suspect that it's the opposite.

  12. #232
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    Jun 2010
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    Stillwell, KS
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    625

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    What's Round-up ready crops have to do with it? Glyphosate is a lot less toxic than most of the other herbicides farmers would be spraying w/o it.
    Loss of forage for native pollenators

  13. #233
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,752

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    I agree, RR crops eliminate those flowering weeds within the farmers field. I assume your talking corn fields.
    But you have to also look at the flip side of that. When the farmers grow flowering crops, which our bees forage on, better weed control makes for more flowers to forage on
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #234
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,304

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Barry:

    How about you make yourself useful and see if Mike B. is posting as pedro from portugal?
    The tone and style are too familiar.
    Victor, I see you have a hard time figuring out how far to appropriately push something!
    Regards, Barry

  15. #235
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Barry:

    The name is WLC.

    It's a matter of internet etiquette.

    Don't call me by my given name without my permission.

    By the way, I hope that you checked the IP. It could have been 'you know who'.

  16. #236
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,539

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    ....as they say...

    To Victor, the pose is spoiled

  17. #237
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,539

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    So anyone you think might be posting under a pseudonym should be outed publicly and investigated by the mods.....but you get to enjoy anonymity? I hoprobably Pedro demands your identity get revealed.....he would be justified in doing so.

    Deknow

  18. #238
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    I find it funny how people like to hide behind tag names. Its as if what they say isnt credible enough to stand behind with their actual name.



    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Barry:

    The name is WLC.

    It's a matter of internet etiquette.

    Don't call me by my given name without my permission.

    By the way, I hope that you checked the IP. It could have been 'you know who'.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #239
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,256

    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    you guys are way too much sometimes.

    i wanted to do a wrap up post on what i think was a great discussion here but....

    i'll have to get to it later.

    in the meantime i have breaking news......

    broke up an ursupation in my yard today, and caught the usurping queen.

    i've even got photos, watch for the new thread.

    again, many thanks to all who participated.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #240
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    wow, what a thread.

    i just reread the whole thing and think the collective wisdom shared here is amazing.

    i found one loose end i have with joseph clemens in his post 155. joe, you mention not seeing the spread of disease when when some of your nucs and smaller hives were robbed.

    that makes sense because these were not sick and collapsing hives, just too weak to defend theirselves. not all cases of robbing have to be of a diseased hive.

    i think this thread has run it's course, and i took the liberty of putting together a list of comments that really spoke to me in my search for answers and opinions to my original question. they appear in the next
    post.

    sincere thanks to all and cheers...
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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