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  1. #201
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    .....is there any evidence to support such a case?
    don't know. do you think it's possible?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #202
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    Panama City, Florida, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Unless you can make a case that escaped swarms are somehow managed more responsibly than an "irresponsible beekeeper", then any hive that swarms is causing the same problems as the irresponsible beekeeper.

    Deknow
    No that is absolutely not correct. When a hive swarms from a responsibly managed hive then you have a better understanding of what you just allowed to enter the outside populations and as it was responsibly managed there is most likely less chance of that something being bad. If a swarm leaves an irresponsibly managed colony, then you have no idea what just left, why it left or the damage it could cause. I had at least 7 swarms leave the hives at my house this year (and I do feel that in itself was irresponsible). I can tell you why they left (or at least make a very educated guess). They did not leave because they were failing or were overrun with pests.

  3. #203
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Were, if you want to work with a specific definition, I suggest you post it and it's source. I don't think you will find one that isn't related to morality.
    An electrician that charges for work he/she didn't do is unethical. One who interchanges the live and ground wire is incompetent.....unethical only if it was done maliciously. Ethics are related to morality. Best management practices or professional guidelines are related to practical matters.

  4. #204
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risksh

    I Have spent enough time on thread. It has been interesting and hopefully not too decisive but beneficial to those Who have spent time on it

    Cheers everyone

  5. #205
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    ...and now that those swarms are established and unmanaged, and if they issued from colonies that require treatments to stay healthy, they atell now a problem, no?

  6. #206
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Were, if you want to work with a specific definition, I suggest you post it and it's source. I don't think you will find one that isn't related to morality.
    An electrician that charges for work he/she didn't do is unethical. One who interchanges the live and ground wire is incompetent.....unethical only if it was done maliciously. Ethics are related to morality. Best management practices or professional guidelines are related to practical matters.
    You have to read context in any discussion or it quickly deteriorated into folly. And ti gave the definition of ethical as used in context right out of dictionary.com

    Later Guys/Gals

  7. #207
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    don't know. do you think it's possible?
    If it were the case, feral hives would be plentiful thought the u.s.

  8. #208
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risksh

    cheers jb! and many thanks...
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #209
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    If it were the case, feral hives would be plentiful thought the u.s.
    they actually are plentiful here.

    and after two years of seeing what problems i have caused interfering with my hives, i am led to the opinion that it is not only possible, but probable.

    it almost seems intuitive that this would be the case, but a study would be nice.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #210
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    The whole premise of beekeeping is based upon the fact that through .management, hives can be larger, more productive, and less swarmy than bees that are not managed.
    Sometimes it does feel that our hives that we only see a couple times a year do better, and other times it seems that our bees that are inspected weekly (very urban locations....swarm prevention is top priority) do better. In some places feral bees do great, and in others not so much.

    Deknow

  11. #211
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    have you read michael bush's piece on 'colony decisions'? it's on his website, you have to scroll down and find it on the left. this seems to support what i have noticed in this regard.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #212
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Whether a beekeeper causes a swarm or not, it's no longer their property if it's not in their equipment.

    You can only be responsible for your own property.

    However, if through failing to follow standard practices with your own property (hives), set by ordinance, you cause problems elsewhere, then yes, you bear some responsibility.

    I still think that the environmental impact of TFB on native pollinators is the key issue that undermines any 'environmentally responsible' claims made for TFB.

    In other words, if you don't follow standard practices while keeping exotic pollinators (like Honeybees), you are responsible for the environmental impact.

    You made a choice, like using the Bond protocol, and you negatively impacted a native species.

    There's no excuse for it. It's a fatal flaw.

  13. #213
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by jbeshearse View Post
    You have to read context in any discussion or it quickly deteriorated into folly. And ti gave the definition of ethical as used in context right out of dictionary.com
    Later Guys/Gals
    Dictionary.com? ...together would be better served with a real dictionary (Webster's or Oxford) if you want an accurate definition.The one you supplied is obscure nd/or incomplete at best. It is difficult (if not impossible) toconsider ethics separately from morality......it is not unethical for a farmer to plant tomatoes in the fall (even though it does not accord with standard practices...it would, however, be unethical to to try and convince a farmer to buy seedlings to plant outside this time of year if one knew better.
    the concepts of "rightness" and morality are closely linked.

  14. #214
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    have you read michael bush's piece on 'colony decisions'? it's on his website, you have to scroll down and find it on the left. this seems to support what i have noticed in this regard.
    sorry deknow, wasn't sure if you saw this or not.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #215
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    sorry wlc, i haven't looked up the citations you listed.

    can you abstract what the current thinking is re the honeybee's impact on native polinators?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #216
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    This is from the Genersch study:

    "Honey bees (Apis mellifera) productively infected with Deformed wing virus (DWV) through Varroa destructor (V. destructor) during pupal stages develop into adults showing wing and other morphological deformities. Here, we report for the first time the occurrence of
    bumble bees (Bombus terrestris, Bombus pascuorum) exhibiting wing deformities resembling those seen in clinically DWV-infected honeybees. Using speciWc RT-PCR protocols for the detection of DWV followed by sequencing of the PCR products we could demonstrate that
    the bumble bees were indeed infected with DWV. Since such deformed bumble bees are not viable DWV infection may pose a serious threat to bumble bee populations."

    I would argue that beekeepers using standard/best practices are 'greener' than TF beekeepers on the basis of mitigating their environmental impact.

    Frankly, it's a more important issue than how other non-native Honeybee colonies are impacted by TFB practices.

  17. #217
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    interesting. do you predict this will lead to the epa whatever appropriate agency to get involved?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #218
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    No, the EPA and other agencies won't move to protect native 'bee' pollinators. It's bad for business.

    What I do predict is that the whole issue of 'environmental impact' will become more commonplace in discussions concerning TFB.

    There's no point in trying to be 'green' without sorting through all of the issues involved.

  19. #219
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    WLC,
    I would pose the idea that modern agricultural practices to more harm to Native Pollinators than does TFB practices, by the destruction of habitat. Just as it effects managed honey bee hives. Though I am sure what the study sights is probably true also.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  20. #220
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    Default Re: treatment free beekeeping - the risks

    sqkcrk:

    Many native pollinators have been squeezed into pockets by the agriculture that you're speaking of. Their ranges have been greatly reduced.

    Those very same pockets also make good beekeeping locations.

    That's something you need to be aware of when TFBing.

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