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insulating scenario

10K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  mgolden 
#1 ·
Would like to discuss the possiblility of insulating a hive outside to keep it near the ideal wintering temperature. They say that the ideal wintering temperature is around 40 degrees, which permits the bees to move cluster to get to new food, but at the same time it is too cold for them to think about flying. So many hives are lost every winter to bees not being able to get to their food supplies because of prolonged extremely cold weather. If we could insulate to the point that the surface of the hive does not get below 35 or 40 degrees, then starvation would be nearly impossible assuming that there is plenty of food, the bees are healthy, and clusters are of sufficient size. So the hypothetical question is, is it possible to insulate enough to accomplish this and how would you do it? John
 
#2 ·
Basically, I would say it depends on how insulation works, and if it will actually have the desired effect.

I once worked a job replumbing an older RV, using minimal space heating and so the plumbing wouldn't be damaged while being used during Winters with temperatures about -15F. I strongly recommended using thermostatically controlled heat tape applied to the copper pipes, beneath the insulation, the customer adamantly refused to allow the heat tape, insisting that the insulation would be sufficient by itself. Of course, insulation is not a source of heat, after the first night at only 20F, the copper pipes were severely ruptured and the plumbing was completely destroyed.
 
#6 ·
So the hypothetical question is, is it possible to insulate enough to accomplish this and how would you do it? John
Of course, the bees do it already. Insulation is only the slowing down of heat transfer. The regulation is done by the bees. So the key is to have healthy bees so they can regulate the hive through the winter. There is a critical population and a critical food supply that will make that happen. Extremes are hard to plan for so what extreme should you design your insulation around?
 
#7 ·
A beekeeper of over 60 years and many continents of study said it best
"Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees. The normal brood-rearing urge, manifested by the other colonies not thus protected, as well as the upsurge of energy and industry, was completely lacking. The results secured here in Devon as well as in Wiltshire palpably demonstrated that undue protection has a positive harmful effect and that cold – even severe cold – exerts a beneficial influence on the well-being of a colony. Winter losses are not the direct result of exposure to low temperature, but are generally due to a lack of timely cleansing flights, unsatisfactory stores, queenlessness, disease, etc."
Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam
 
#8 ·
In my area an extreme situation would be when the temperature does not go over 25 degrees both day and night for about two weeks straight, and the night temps can go down below zero, with wind chills well below zero. That has happened to me once within the last few years, and it was that winter that I lost many hives due to starvation. So, insulating to the point where those low temperatures don't come into contact with the hive itself is what I would be looking to accomplish. John
 
#10 ·
It would take a huge amount of insulation and heat/moisture exchange to keep the whole hive at 40 when it's twenty below outside, and it's neither desirable nor necessary to do so.

The best thing you can do for the survival of the colony is to make sure they have plenty of stores above the cluster, and if they don't, sugar candy or dry sugar in easy reach above them. The moisture generated by the cluster will make syrup on the surface of the candy or dry sugar and the bees can easily use it when they reach it.

Otherwise, protect them from direct drafts by reducing the entrance and putting a board in SSB stands, make sure there is some ventilation at the top to vent moisture, seal large cracks between boxes and install a windbreak if you don't have a natural one.

If you have real winter (significant number of days below zero every winter) you should wrap with tar paper -- this both heats the hive on sunny days and prevents wind penetrating cracks.

Low temps inside the hive are much less of a problem than large amounts of air movement through the hive, or no air movement and condensation dripping on the bees -- wet bees will chill and die very quickly, dry bees will stay warm and survive.

Peter
 
#11 ·
I agree with Peter, ventilation and dealing with moisture are more important that insulation. Avoid winter hive situations that allow the inner surface of the cover to be cold and impervious to moisture. I use an insulated/ventilated inner cover that has screened holes near the center on the bottom, and screened holes on the sides. It is about 2" thick consisting of 1/4" plywood on each side with 1-3/4" boards around the edges. It is filled with wood shavings (cedar pet bedding). I close off the bottom entrance to about 2" and screen it for mice, I keep one of the upper entrances (1" holes) completely open. This will provide some flow-through ventilation to remove moisture.
 
#12 ·
Well, maybe I'm being too ambitious with all the insulating, after all this is only Michigan not the arctic. I do agree though that having a windbreak and eliminating drafts through the hive is highly important. What I might do instead is use tar paper like I always do, and try to build a windbreak by stacking straw bales around and up next to the hives. I may also put 2" foam board on top of the inner covers too this year. John
 
#14 ·
With all respect to Brother Adam, Devon winters are not very cold, at least not by northern North American standards! We here in the Pacific Northwest coast likely have similar winters...cold, wet, with some days down to below freezing, maybe one or two light skiffs of traffic stopping snow per season, but plenty of above freezing days and a smattering of near tee shirt days throughout. Ventilation and rain protection is probably a bigger concern for us and for Devon than insulation...
 
#15 ·
People always say that cold doesn't kill bees, wet does. What about cold temps that last weeks? Temps where bees cluster tight and stay tight. Will they not die of starvation in this scenario? I plan on insulating the hive along with an upper entrance. Solid insulation above the hive along with on the outside with tar paper on the outside of the insulation. Thats my second year beek plan.
 
#16 ·
I was just reading in one of my old bee books that if you have less than ten pounds of bees in your hive going into winter that you should unite them with a stronger colony, can you believe that? That would be the "ideal" winter cluster for sure, but I doubt many hives have that many, I know none of mine do, how about you? John
 
#17 ·
You have to allow air circulation or the bees will asphyxiate. There comes a point where adding more insulation does not do any good because you have to allow some air to move in and out of the hive.
 
#19 ·
We treat our bees like we treat our other pets, trying to see to their every need and comfort, but lets not forget that the bees are here today because they survived on their own for millions of years without our assistance. With that being said, there is no reason why we can't do some things to help them get through the winter more easily, as long as we are indeed helping and not causing more problems for them to overcome. I believe that if a colony has a large enough population of young, healthy bees going into winter and plenty of food located in the proper places, and ventilation, it should be able to winter just fine without any help from us anywhere in the U.S. and quite possibly most of Canada. The trouble is, how many hives meet those criteria? John
 
#20 ·
You make a good point Ace, that is why this topic can be frustrating. A beekeeper must look at their own winter weather conditions and make their own determination as to what is needed, but what you just stated applies to all, we must find that correct balance between heat loss through ventilation and heat retention, whether that is just the 3/4" walls of the hive or adding something to the outside of the hive to better protect the bees.

I did a winter study last year with thermometers placed inside and outside of a hive and a piece of plexiglass for the inner cover to observe temperatures and condensation in order to better determine what was happening inside the hive, during this study I discovered what was the best way to set up my hives for winter in the area in which I live. I would encourage everyone to do a little experimenting for themselves this winter because what is the best wintering method for me would no doubt not suit someone who lives in Canada.
 
#23 ·
WWW, I think it would be very interesting to do a study on my own bees to see the different temperature readings you would get inside a hive with insulation, no insulation, temperature adjacent to the cluster, etc. during some various outside temperatures in the winter. I would need to locate some thermometers that have long stems to do what I wanted to do, any ideas on that? John
 
#24 ·
John,
I used 1" dial thermometers that had 5" long probes, these are commonly found in hardware stores, supermarkets and I have even seen them in Autozone for air conditioning use, but my guess would be that Walmart will have them as well and probably at a good price. Please let us know how your study turns out, it would be fascinating to see how Michigan winters affect your hives :).
 
#25 ·
I struggled with this problem last year and came to the conclusion that I'm not sure insulation is worth it as far as using it to try and control the temp in the hive.

The first issue I ran into was the idea that whatever you put on for insulation to keep it warm, also keeps it cool. So will the benefit of added warmth over ride the loss of benefit from holding in the cold by preventing warmth from the outside to warm the hive?

As someone else mentioned you'd probably have to do a heat calculation to actually come up with the actual number, however my guess is that it simply isn't worth it. First you'd have to have a pretty air tight hive to start with. Anyone with leaky windows or doors knows how a tiny crack can suck out a massive amount of heat out of a large room. A tiny entrance hole is probably enough to turn the air over in a hive several times an hour thereby over riding any benefit to insulating.

Furthermore you don't want to air tight because of condensation issues.

Again, it's possible that bees put out enough heat to warm up a space and keep it warm even with high air flow, I don't know, but I doubt it. I suspect that rather than acting like humans in a home they act more like penguins and simply create a warm cluster and rotate the guys on the inside to the outside all winter. When the hive warms up enough they scurry over and pick up more food for the cluster. That is where, IMO, the damage of insulation might occur. You might hold the hive at a colder temp for longer not allowing the cluster to break as quickly.

All speculation on my part.

~Matt
 
#26 ·
MJuric, all good points you make, I think there is a reason that wrapping with good ole felt paper and supplying good ventilation is considered all you need to do in a cold climate by most experts who wrote books on the subject. The felt paper acts as a windbreak of sorts, and absorbs heat quickly. I can see where too much insulation could be detrimental, even with good ventilation. Here again, we try to make our bees too comfortable, maybe they would rather we didn't try so hard sometimes. I think if we went back to just providing a good windbreak, ventilation(but not too much), positioning the hives where they get the most winter sun, and wintering only good size clusters well provisioned with food, and letting the bees do what they do, we may come out of winter looking pretty good. John
 
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