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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,346

    Default Re: Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?

    Not a joke, but not intended to be demeaning either. I wouldn't be offended if you called my area rebel land.

    Mike,
    Would have been disappointed if you passed on an opportunity to jab me. We have not had a round in some time.
    You missed the whole point of my post. Don't think I said or implied that I thought the data in the sketch was inaccurate. If anything, Farrar was meticulous. The point of the post was that the literature coming out of the northeast tier of states is often not applicable to our area. That begs the question: where, between here and there does it change, and how? Does it change in the north/south span of Indiana? If so, that state should have at least two sets of guidelines. Think about it.

    Walt
    Opinion trumps opposing views.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,466

    Default Re: Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Not a joke, but not intended to be demeaning either. I wouldn't be offended if you called my area rebel land.

    Mike,
    Would have been disappointed if you passed on an opportunity to jab me. We have not had a round in some time.
    You missed the whole point of my post. Don't think I said or implied that I thought the data in the sketch was inaccurate. If anything, Farrar was meticulous. The point of the post was that the literature coming out of the northeast tier of states is often not applicable to our area. That begs the question: where, between here and there does it change, and how? Does it change in the north/south span of Indiana? If so, that state should have at least two sets of guidelines. Think about it.

    Walt
    Opinion trumps opposing views.
    >>Mike,
    Would have been disappointed if you passed on an opportunity to jab me. We have not had a round in some time.
    You missed the whole point of my post. Don't think I said or implied that I thought the data in the sketch was inaccurate. If anything, Farrar was meticulous.

    Not trying to jab Walt. No, you didn't say the sketch was inaccurate, you said it wasn't pertinent to most of the country. The point of the original question from a beekeeper in Wisconsin, was to give him some idea of what an early winter cluster looks like. I know of none better to illustrate how bees set up their winter broodnest...at least where there is a winter.


    >>The point of the post was that the literature coming out of the northeast tier of states is often not applicable to our area.

    Okay, fair enough. I've never looked at a pre/early/mid-winter broodnest in Tennessee or anywhere else in the southeast. But i your explanation and examples, you seem to be describing the spring broodnest, swarm prep time, and backfilling. The sketch is of an early winter broodnest. No backfilling, broodnest expansion, or swarm preparations happening for months. Do you have a description of the early winter broodnest showing how it differs from one i a more northerly location?

    >>That begs the question: where, between here and there does it change, and how? Does it change in the north/south span of Indiana? If so, that state should have at least two sets of guidelines. Think about it.

    I don't have a clue Walt. I thought you would know...as you've stated that the sketch isn't applicable to most of the US. So do let us know where the change takes place.

    >>Walt
    >>Opinion trumps opposing views.

    Only when it's your opinion, eh Walt?
    Mike

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,346

    Default Re: Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?

    Mike,
    Readily concede that I often yeild to my poor keyboard skills and over-condense text to the point of losing some of the sense of the subject.

    Re the descriptions being about the early seasons:
    Surely, you have a copy of Farrar's 8 Part treatise on increasing honey production. He was big on hive body (three) reversals to maintain increased brood volumes. If you look at some of the reversal sketches, you will see some patches or fragments of the pollen band surviving through the reversals. He even reversed into the beginning of "main flow." Our not normally seeing the overhead pollen band in the buildup period is relevant.

    Your guess about the overhead pollen encapsulated under honey may be accurate, but I'm sceptical. From what I see, storing pollen between brood and overhead honey would be out of character.

    We harvest upper shallows of honey that had been used for brood earlier in the season. Occasionally we find a frame of encapsulated pollen. That frame had been adjacent to the brood at one time, and was left behind in brood nest reduction. The cells had been filled with feed pollen to the brood-rearing depth. When left behind, the cells are extended to honey storage depth, filled with honey, and capped. I don't believe that encapsulated pollen overhead is deliberate. More accidental than on purpose.

    Actually, overhead pollen encountered during buildup the following spring would be more of hinderance than an asset. Buildup is triggered by pollen availability in the field. They feed older larvae fresh pollen. The emphasis in late winter is on pollen foraging. Seems to me that fermented pollen would be in the way of expansion, but they deal with it.

    Walt
    Opinion (yours) inhibits learning anything in opposition.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,466

    Default Re: Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Actually, overhead pollen encountered during buildup the following spring would be more of hinderance than an asset. Buildup is triggered by pollen availability in the field. They feed older larvae fresh pollen. The emphasis in late winter is on pollen foraging. Seems to me that fermented pollen would be in the way of expansion, but they deal with it.
    Actually, brood rearing in the late winter/early spring here occurs before spring foraging is possible. This brood rearing requires pollen, and that pollen was stored last season. Our late winter is still winter, and there's not much forage under the snow.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,346

    Default Re: Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?

    True. Realized after posting that I had presented the southern viewpoint and should have mentioned your circumstance. Considered adding an edit to do that. Sure you would correct me, let it ride.

    Walt

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,346

    Default Re: Visual for the 2 deeps for wintering?

    Margot1d,
    Nobody answered your question. You've already encountered conflicting opinions and you can see that there is reason for that. IMO there is little to be gained by raising the empty to the top. You will likely need to feed solids in late winter - candy or dry sugar. Solids need to be in contact with the cluster to be most effective when it's cold. An empty between them is not good.

    Would not expect you to have much fall flow in the city. Weeds don't do well on pavement or under building sites. But you do have some time left to feed syrup. You're in the mildest winter area in the state. Buffered by the mountains, adjacent to the ocean, and city heat loss all help. So feed now. And feed internal to the hive - in the cluster heat rise if possible. If you can master baggie feeding, that might be best. Tip - put a rigid panel under the flexible bag for handling, and hive spacer to insure access at the top.

    Walt

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