We have always used it as a preventative measure spring and fall.
it is expensive though so this spring i decided not to use it.
we had a test done in June and there were zero spores of either kind of nosema, but we only took samples from one yard.(it was FDA funded study so it was free)
even though still putting it in the syrup this fall.
Marla Spivak said we should all stop using it and let the bee's work it out just like tracheal mites.
there is something wrong with the bee's right now but i think its a bad year for varroa
We have a new additive in our sub that target's the gut pathogens like nosema, it builds the good xyz in the mid gut of the bee. I was just wondering how many folks still fed fumagilian.
Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens.. Who woulda thunk after all these years? Glad to see the subject has gone full circle.
In some circles one could be vilified for even suggesting not using fumagilin. This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter. Somebody is making big bank on it.
My feeling is that overwintered bees in northern climes are more susceptible to Nosema than are bees in warmer climes. I used Fumidil for a couple years and really saw that the numbers went down dramatically.........in my bank account. Honestly we had lower readings in our bees without treatment than we had when we were treating. Our recent tests were 6 of 8 samples were negative and two very low positives and thats with no treatments of any kind. Just one guys opinion in one set of circumstances.
.) ...it is interesting to note what Zachary Huang's lab discovered
(ABJ abstract #14) about feeding fumagillin to honey bees to control
Nosema ceranae. In their studies, they found that the antibiotic impacts
both the parasite and the protein makeup of the honey bee intestinal
tract. In fact, as the level of fumagillin decreases in the bees over
time, it reaches a low level which actually stimulates spore production
of N. ceranae. A similar effect is seen with N. apis, but it is not
nearly so pronounced._It could be that the low levels of fumagillin may
be suppressing the honey bee immune system. The use of fumagillin as a
last resort cancer treatment in mammals severely impairs their immune
.) ...it is interesting to note what Zachary Huang's lab discovered
(ABJ abstract #14) about feeding fumagillin to honey bees to control
Nosema ceranae. In their studies, they found that the antibiotic impacts
both the parasite and the protein makeup of the honey bee intestinal
tract.
Not to detract from the direct effects to bees, but I'm curious if there have been studies of the quality of the honey produced. Like exposure to fungicides, wouldn't an antibiotic result in a lower flora (microbe/enzyme) honey, via reducing the flora in the honey stomach?
> Honestly we had lower readings in our bees without treatment than we had when we were treating.
That would be consistent with the most recent research which shows that it kills off the bacteria that make a biofilm that protect their gut from Nosema...
> I'm curious if there have been studies of the quality of the honey produced. Like exposure to fungicides, wouldn't an antibiotic result in a lower flora (microbe/enzyme) honey, via reducing the flora in the honey stomach?
I don't know about the quality of the honey, but it does disrupt the flora in their stomach and make them MORE susceptible to Nosema as well as other diseases.
But really worries me is that no one seems to care that it causes birth defects in mammals and has been outlawed in most civilized countries of the world because of that.
I've been told that the concentrations of active ingredients vary (significantly) in Fumagillin, leading to a slightly over-dose application recommendation; to avoid under-dosing and thus developing resistance. I suppose the answer is posted here somewhere, but can anyone confirm this?
I put the lemongrass product from Mann lake in all my syrup and sub. It's real spendy but ever since I started using it... never had nosema problems. It sure was a killer before.
I looked a fellow beekeepers bees two weeks ago and he had some bad nosema problems. He drenched them with fumagilian last fall. He looked at my bees and said all he did was waste a lot of money.
I used it for a couple of years (during the great Nosema Ceranae) scare. I quit about 3 years ago. The first fall after I got results from testing the state of SD did which showed my levels at or near 0, I called and talked to Bob Reiners our state inspector to find out what he was generally seeing around the state. the first thing he asked me was "what are you doing to get numbers that low?". I said ummmmmm nothing Bob. He told me there were lots of high readings around the state and assumed I must be doing something different. I just said I dunno, I don't have a clue. Haven't used since nor have I gotten any high readings. My conclusion is when I was using Fumidil that the only count that it seemed to affect was my bank account.
So I have read down the answers to this thread and have one comment:
No wonder our national "winter losses" are where they are.
WOW!!!
We use Fumigillian as directed in spring and fall.
When your "winter losses" break our record, ( 2.6% in 2010) we may try not using it.
This year: < 6% .
Do you suppose we could have done better if we had not used Fumigillian?
How did you do this winter?
Well it tells me is that you are doing a LOT of things right. I would guess that your losses would probably have been higher without treatment but then it would just be a guess. I do know my losses were lower in the two years after I quit than the two years that I used it. I'm not going to try to make the case, though, that Fumidil increased my losses only that Nosema is just one of a lot of things that can be going on in our hives and it's also about the most difficult to accurately diagnose.
30 years ago while running bees in central Minnesota I was advised by Dick Hyser, then the Minnesota state bee inspector, that a fall feeding of Fumidil would greatly lessen my winter loss. That fall we mixed up drums of treated and untreated syrup and fed 1/2 of slected yards with and 1/2 without medication. The tally the next spring in those test yards was an almost identical loss percentage. It is the last time I used it until I heard people screaming CERANAE, CERANAE. So honestly about the only things I know for sure is that it's expensive and it's an antibiotic that could conceivably have some unforeseen effects in your hives. Just for the record Harry, if I were you I wouldn't change a thing.
There are lots of trial available that show the effectiveness of Fumagillin against nosema.
I think the issue here may be that beekeepers are treating when they don't have an issue with it.
I would say beekeepers should test their bees first off to see if there is in deed a problem to treat
and if there is a problem, I would suggest that you would see a response to the treatment
>>Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens<<
"This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter." JBJ
OK, please would someone explain why the difference is pertinent; My worst subject in school was Microbiology, and I know someone out there can explain it in layman's terms.
Jim, I actually know a nephew of Bob Hyser; The last time I saw him he told me that there was no one in the family keeping bees anymore.
"The scientific classification of Microsporidia has evolved through time with growing scientific research in the area, and the specifics are still currently debated. Initially thought to be a protozoan (kingdom Protista), recent studies using DNA techniques indicate phylum Microspora should be classified under the Fungi kingdom or at least as a sister kingdom to Fungi."
From the page http://www.stanford.edu/class/humbio103/ParaSites2006/Microsporidiosis/microsporidia1.html
My interpretation is that Nosema should be classified as a fungus.
its hard on the bees. shouldnt just use it blindly. overuse of antibiotics not a good thing. u can get a microscope and test your own. its not that hard. my bees look the best when they have that wonderful east texas pollen coming in during the spring. so that would be when i would use it again sometime cuz they can bounce back if it does some damage
Well, what about that fumagillin. (The following comments are meant as food for thought and are assumed to be rhetorical.)
When should it be used? Current thought is that Nosema cerana has replaced N. apis as the predominant species in colonies. This is the summertime nosema which grows more poorly in colder conditions.
Do we treat in the fall for N. cerana? Oh, and what dose? Standard dosing is less effective for cerana. What method of application (drench or syrup feed)? Randy Oliver has calculated dosages with a standard drench showing the total applied dose to be much lower than that recommended in syrup feeding.
So, first, we test for spores with our Suck-a-Bee vaccuum at the entrance for foragers, or under the cover, or??? Presently some university labs are testing only bees from the broodnest, as those heavily spore-laden foragers at the entrance which randomly appear, can significantly alter counts of otherwise healthy colonies. Which spore count does not lie?
Now, we also need to take into account the shortened longevity of bees consuming fumagillin. What will this do to our winter cluster in January and February? Did this also negatively impact immune function to other diseases/viruses?
Seems like the recommendations coming to us are from the pharmaceutical industry and the dealers selling the product. A little bias in the source of our guidance?
The truth is that we are treating our bees for nosema with little definitive evidence to guide us. We are treating based on testimonials, industry suggestions, and our fear of losing our bees if we deviate from what we did last year when our bees came out of winter looking okay.
Anyone with research backed ideas, on the concept of nosema treatment, to help sort this out?
We have a micro-flora builder in our sub which competes with the nosema spores.
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