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Thread: Fumagilian-B

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Spore counts don't lie...

    As we come to understand the biology of this pest there will be/have been breakthroughs. There is more than one way to skin the cat.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    So I have read down the answers to this thread and have one comment:
    No wonder our national "winter losses" are where they are.
    WOW!!!
    We use Fumigillian as directed in spring and fall.
    When your "winter losses" break our record, ( 2.6% in 2010) we may try not using it.
    This year: < 6% .
    Do you suppose we could have done better if we had not used Fumigillian?
    How did you do this winter?
    Well it tells me is that you are doing a LOT of things right. I would guess that your losses would probably have been higher without treatment but then it would just be a guess. I do know my losses were lower in the two years after I quit than the two years that I used it. I'm not going to try to make the case, though, that Fumidil increased my losses only that Nosema is just one of a lot of things that can be going on in our hives and it's also about the most difficult to accurately diagnose.
    30 years ago while running bees in central Minnesota I was advised by Dick Hyser, then the Minnesota state bee inspector, that a fall feeding of Fumidil would greatly lessen my winter loss. That fall we mixed up drums of treated and untreated syrup and fed 1/2 of slected yards with and 1/2 without medication. The tally the next spring in those test yards was an almost identical loss percentage. It is the last time I used it until I heard people screaming CERANAE, CERANAE. So honestly about the only things I know for sure is that it's expensive and it's an antibiotic that could conceivably have some unforeseen effects in your hives. Just for the record Harry, if I were you I wouldn't change a thing.
    Last edited by jim lyon; 01-31-2013 at 10:11 AM.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    I use it every year and the bees always look nice.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by JBJ View Post
    Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens.. Who woulda thunk after all these years? Glad to see the subject has gone full circle.

    In some circles one could be vilified for even suggesting not using fumagilin. This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter. Somebody is making big bank on it.
    Just thought I would repost this good post by JBJ
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by busy bee apiary View Post
    I use it every year and the bees always look nice.
    You sure it's not because something else you use, Dereck. lol
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  6. #26
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    We have a new additive in our sub that target's the gut pathogens like nosema, it builds the good xyz in the mid gut of the bee. I was just wondering how many folks still fed fumagilian.
    [QUOTE=JBJ;891226]Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens.. Who woulda thunk after all these years? Glad to see the subject has gone full circle. [QUOTE]


    is this additive a closely guarded proprietary secret? is there information us little guys who can't buy truckloads of sub could benefit from?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Oh yes I'll give credit where it's do. That's why I sent out a video and some pics last week of the bees. A little pat on the back. Haha

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Dereck, I got carpel-tunnel from doing that.lol
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by busy bee apiary View Post
    That's why I sent out a video and some pics last week of the bees.
    Where???

    P.S. hope you got the info you were looking for last week.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    There are lots of trial available that show the effectiveness of Fumagillin against nosema.

    I think the issue here may be that beekeepers are treating when they don't have an issue with it.
    I would say beekeepers should test their bees first off to see if there is in deed a problem to treat
    and if there is a problem, I would suggest that you would see a response to the treatment

    >>Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens<<

    Its exciting to see this stuff !
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    "This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter." JBJ
    OK, please would someone explain why the difference is pertinent; My worst subject in school was Microbiology, and I know someone out there can explain it in layman's terms.

    Jim, I actually know a nephew of Bob Hyser; The last time I saw him he told me that there was no one in the family keeping bees anymore.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    Jim, I actually know a nephew of Bob Hyser; The last time I saw him he told me that there was no one in the family keeping bees anymore.
    He was a great guy, I learned a lot from him. He and Dr. Furgala were always at the forefront of bee research.
    Last edited by jim lyon; 01-31-2013 at 10:12 AM.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    "The scientific classification of Microsporidia has evolved through time with growing scientific research in the area, and the specifics are still currently debated. Initially thought to be a protozoan (kingdom Protista), recent studies using DNA techniques indicate phylum Microspora should be classified under the Fungi kingdom or at least as a sister kingdom to Fungi."
    From the page http://www.stanford.edu/class/humbio...sporidia1.html

    My interpretation is that Nosema should be classified as a fungus.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Just thought I would repost this good post by JBJ
    Speaking of re-posting, here is a thread I started on the subject in 2007:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ght=probiotics

    Bottom line with Varroa under control: healthy gut = healthy bees. This is a game changer and should not be underestimated. The big three when dealing with bee health in order of importance:
    1.Nutrition, 2. Varroa, 3. Nosema. The reason Nutrition is number one is that it can actually help deal with the other two by creating imuno-competent bees. Take care of number one in a big way, do your spore counts, and you just might be pleasantly surprised (and so will your bank account).
    Last edited by JBJ; 01-31-2013 at 09:39 AM. Reason: additional clarification
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  15. #35
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    south dakota
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    its hard on the bees. shouldnt just use it blindly. overuse of antibiotics not a good thing. u can get a microscope and test your own. its not that hard. my bees look the best when they have that wonderful east texas pollen coming in during the spring. so that would be when i would use it again sometime cuz they can bounce back if it does some damage

  16. #36
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    Applegate, Oregon, USA
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Well, what about that fumagillin. (The following comments are meant as food for thought and are assumed to be rhetorical.)

    When should it be used? Current thought is that Nosema cerana has replaced N. apis as the predominant species in colonies. This is the summertime nosema which grows more poorly in colder conditions.

    Do we treat in the fall for N. cerana? Oh, and what dose? Standard dosing is less effective for cerana. What method of application (drench or syrup feed)? Randy Oliver has calculated dosages with a standard drench showing the total applied dose to be much lower than that recommended in syrup feeding.

    So, first, we test for spores with our Suck-a-Bee vaccuum at the entrance for foragers, or under the cover, or??? Presently some university labs are testing only bees from the broodnest, as those heavily spore-laden foragers at the entrance which randomly appear, can significantly alter counts of otherwise healthy colonies. Which spore count does not lie?

    Now, we also need to take into account the shortened longevity of bees consuming fumagillin. What will this do to our winter cluster in January and February? Did this also negatively impact immune function to other diseases/viruses?

    Seems like the recommendations coming to us are from the pharmaceutical industry and the dealers selling the product. A little bias in the source of our guidance?

    The truth is that we are treating our bees for nosema with little definitive evidence to guide us. We are treating based on testimonials, industry suggestions, and our fear of losing our bees if we deviate from what we did last year when our bees came out of winter looking okay.

    Anyone with research backed ideas, on the concept of nosema treatment, to help sort this out?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    BBD: that's a really, really, really good post. I think too often beekeepers just treat for Nosema because ummmm errrrr that's what good beekeepers do.....right? I don't doubt that there is a good time and place to use it but every year? By everybody? Are you a bad beekeeper if you don't? Hmmmmmmm.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    I sat in on a number of speakers talking about nosema a couple years back, they had studdies showing the effectiveness of Fumagillin in controling Nosema. Its not made up.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    Quote Originally Posted by borada bee doc View Post
    Anyone with research backed ideas, on the concept of nosema treatment, to help sort this out?
    YES, "ok ok ok Jimmy, I will make this short"

    We have a micro-flora builder in our sub which competes with the nosema spores.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Fumagilian-B

    I think it makes a real difference on colony spore count depending where you grab the bees,
    our guys tell us to take them from the lid or entrance when testing for nosema levels
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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