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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    i believe you are correct wlc, about the distinctions between ipm and tfb, but my point was that the ultimate realization of ipm is tfb.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    andrew, this too is my understanding of what it looks like in the practical sense. no hard and fast rules, but very well defined objectives.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    Or, TFB is a form of IPM.

    Killing wax moths by freezing. Freezing drone comb. Screen bottomed boards. Vented inner covers. Sugar dusting to 'count mites'. Rotating out old combs. Using mousegaurds. Using mesquite as a smoker fuel...

    There are quite a few IPM tricks in TFB.

    So, it's more IPM than TFB, really.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    more overlap than distinction then, right?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    More like: TFB is a subset of IPM.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    good enuf.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #67
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    Jul 2010
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    Bay Minette, AL. USA
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    are you saying treatment free beekeeping is really just the end result of good management?
    No I was actually asking is it location or just management for treatment free? Like the queen ur suppose to pay big bucks for? I feed this year to get everything started on the right note now after wintering them I will have frames of honey to feed a new establishing hive. So I just want to know why u want people to think they have to buy these certain queens or your doomed? I will be buying some buckfast and Russians next year so I will have four different races in my yard. Should I buy them from the states or should I go to Canada for my buckfast?
    Let bees be bees.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    ok, i understand the question is how much or little difference is there when introducing (maybe high priced) genetics into an apiary, buy purchasing queens bred for 'treatment free'.

    i hope that some of the others will chime in, because i have some, but not alot of experience on this.

    most of the bees i have purchased, i.e. several nucs, and a few queens last year, were bought from a local beekeeper. turns out, he has not used any treatments of any kind in the 14 years he has been raising bees.
    his line of bees was started from cut-outs of feral hives that he took from the deep woods surrounding his property.

    (i have two hives remaining that i purchased from a different source, and that was a nightmare)

    my supplier doesn't advertise at all, or make grandious claims about his bees. he just started with local survivors and has mangaged to produce bees that seem to handle life around here with little or no intervention required.

    i have been paying $20 for a queen, and $75 for a five frame (but sometimes bigger) nuc. i live 45 minutes away, can usually get them as needed in season, and i like getting bees that are adapted to my area.

    i have propagated the best of these bees by spitting and catching swarms, and in two years went from 4 to 20 hives.

    i have had really good luck with these bees, and it makes sense that i should. i'm not sure what i would do if these were not available.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #69
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    Calvert, Md,USA
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    Your supplier sounds like me. O.K. I sound like him. I've doing that for four years. Hardly a testament.(in my case) There are those that keep telling me, it takes that long before the mites take hold. I keep waiting. May happen, but I'll ride the wave till then. Had to draw the line in the sand somewhere. I can't say my bees are mite resistant, tolerant, or anything really other than, they have not died. I have not documented a hive that has not swarmed, or had a naturally occurring brood break for a span of three years. I'm not sure that makes a big difference in the big picture. My "thoughts" are that the bees that have some "feral survivor" genes deal with mites on a multiple front. Most things I've read suggest that the selected trait for VSH or whatever, falls out of the mix after three generations more or less. If there is no back up system in place, the mites population could be a problem again. I understand VSH is not supposed to be one behavior trait. I just don't know. The other thing I wonder is, if these bees, we are talking about, could dealing with the mites on a chemical/pheromone level? Don't know. It only makes sense(to me) that the bees that seem to be surviving the mites, came from a more a more diversified genetic background, as opposed to selected for "something". Seems it would indicate more resources genetically to draw from. My two cents

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    it makes sense to me too rick. i have no way of knowing what percentage of the sperm in my queens comes from my yard (which was mostly derived from feral stock anyway, and subsequently bred without treatments for mites or anything else), and what percentage of sperm comes from the feral colonies that are presently around me.

    but yeah, the queen is only supplying half of the genetics, and if it is desirable, (and i think that it is), to have diversity, and if it desirable, (and i think it is), to have feral survivor drones contributing to your stock, then you and i are lucky that our locations allow for this.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    And it seems that location plays a huge role. But again,,,,I don't know.

  12. #72
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    Bay Minette, AL. USA
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    Well all is good when u have a supplier at ur fingertips, but for the majority we don't have that luxury. So I guess I will buy those Canadian buckfast and get my Russians from the Mississippi area and go from there.
    Let bees be bees.

  13. #73
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    Calvert, Md,USA
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    Sorry B crazy,,,,I beg to differ. the best bees I got came from a reputable supplier in my temperate zone.Tenn to be exact. JMHO, your finger tips need to be a little longer Those genes have been an augment to the swarms I have brought in. It's not easy nor cut and dry. Sounds like Square peg might help have a source. dunno Net work

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    101, if there is nobody raising local survivor bees in south alabama you could be the guy! it's a little work but, you could do like rick and my suppier and seek out, trap, and raise survivor stock from your area.
    it's almost easier money selling bees than honey. (not trying to tell you what to do, just a thought)

    rick, my feeling is that location isn't everything, but almost. i think i posted somewhere that the best bees in the world wouldn't stand a chance at the north pole. they gots to have what they gots to have.

    with the diseases and pests around these days, i would rate genetics as the next most important factor. i want survivor genes as much as possible.

    lastly, i would say the skill of the beekeeper, when it comes to managing the artificial space we put the bees into, and finding out how to do things in a way that facilitates rather than impedes the colony.

    just my opinion.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    To me,,,just me,it is simple,,,if the genetic material is not there, the bees can not draw from their ancestry to overcome the environmental pressure. Of anything. I'm not sure skill has too much to do with it unless skill equates to allowing the bees to take their own course. I know, philosophical bs but it is all I have to hang my hat on right now. It is working for me is all I know. I guess one has to decide to do it above all else and accept he consequences. I got lucky I guess with my swarms.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    sounds like your doing something right,
    good work.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #77
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    Calvert, Md,USA
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    What's right is setting the stage to let the bees do what they do best, take care of themselves. More complicated than that I know,,,but,,,
    It's local.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    agreed.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #79
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Bay Minette, AL. USA
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    That's is my plan in the next five years. I am looking at the best direction to go with a sideline. I started with two April 20 and split three times. Should have done more but was busy buying tools and started making my own boxes, covers, bottoms, but. still buying frames. I plan on selling some honey but mostly going to give it to family and friends. But after five years I will have a good survivor stock in lower Alabama.
    Let bees be bees.

  20. #80
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Absolutely amazing!!!

    good plan man. we are in opposite ends of the state, but if you ever get up this way and are interested in some of these nucs or queens let me know.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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