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  1. #101
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    Mar 2011
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    Fort Worth, TX, USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    that's what I do. Foundationless on untreated hives.
    Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, guess I will teach permaculture in drought. The bees are still alive.

  2. #102
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,660

    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Yes, you know me Mark.

  3. #103
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    ... Also if suppliers are selling foundation that can be harmful to man and getting away with it, someone isn't doing there job. IMHO. Jack
    FDA is not doing good job protecting citizens - the standards on many pesticides at least 5x lower (more chemical permitted) than in EU. For instance, ANY traces of antibiotics is prohibited in the honey in EU. DDT do exists. I do not think that current DDT could easily get into the hive NOW. But, if somehow DDT got into the wax - it will stay forever, it is literally un-destructible. Modern pesticides are more "destructible" by the elements and UV from the sun. The problem is that beehive provides perfect protection for those new pesticides...

    Since I am novice in all these bee-business, I could not understand, why such a problem with commercial foundation? Just collect wax from cupping and made your own chemical-free (as much as possible) foundation! What is the problem? Home-made foundation and treatment-free are good selling points, I think. Sergey
    Sergey

  4. #104
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    Apr 2005
    Location
    havana fl
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    1,358

    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    Mac, the moderator was concerned about contamination in the commercial foundation Vs natural drawn comb for comb honey.
    I got that but thanks for the clarification. The original posting was about how to produce it and market it then it morphed into pesticides and foundation.
    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    The thin foundation I buy for comb honey, I only use 1 in. or 2 in. strips for a starter and it has to be heated to a melting temp. to produce it which would kill some of the contaminates.(but probly not all) As for organic produce, it's not all contaminates free either.
    Exactly that was my point about research. Heating your wax doesnít destroy or eliminate pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, and insecticides, from that wax. There has been no research that I am aware of that has tested toxicities of all these chemicals mixed together which is why I referenced the point about doing more research on organics and not on new chemicals. And I agree that comb honey is probably no worse than anything else we choose to eat.
    Iím really not that serious

  5. #105
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    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fair Grove,MO,USA
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    1,665

    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    When growing up,40's and 50's) we had a grade C milk barn. One of my jobs was to spray the backs of the cows with a hand pump fly sprayer that always leaked and the DDT or Chlorodane (sp?) would run down your arm and drip off your elbow.(some of you oldtimers know what i"m talking about.) We didn't know the dangers of it then? but i'm 74 yrs. old and in good health, (maybe i'm just lucky) I told the owner of a chemical store about this,(i was worried about an early death) he just chuckeld and said, having skin contact with DDT and Chlorodane(it had been taken off the market for years) wasn't a good thing,but that we have insecticides available to the public now that's more harmful than DDT or Chlorodane ever was?My point is, we live in a chemical driven world,some good some bad and we are (sadly) going to have to live with it.
    PS. If i remember right, DDT was taken off the market because it was killing Eagles?

  6. #106
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    havana fl
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    (sadly) going to have to live with it.
    Not if we put money into research for organics
    Iím really not that serious

  7. #107
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    ... the DDT or Chlorodane (sp?) would run down your arm and drip off your elbow... We didn't know the dangers of it then? but i'm 74 yrs. old and in good health...
    I do not know if any statistics on effect of DDT on people, but what I know is that practically all native fauna and flora in great Los Angeles area and Orange county was destroyed during that period of time by unwise overuse of pesticides and other chemicals, but we are alive! Apparently, humans are hardier than native species... Bad stuff have a tendency to accumulate in the body and affect the body in many small ways - increase risk of cancer, unexpected allergy, some chronic condition. Mutations, low sperm counts do not affect directly you but next generation...So, people claim that they are healthy not thinking about further effects. For instance, the massive spread of allergies, asthma etc. in our time (my time) is mostly attributed to polluted environment - which WAS polluted in 50es and 60es! I very hope that your kids are as healthy as you are and even better! From another hand, the use by Americans of "orange agent" and its devastating effect on millions of people is well documented! I agree with previous poster that honey, probably, is not most dangerous food on the earth! I wish produce manufacturers would do care about their produce as beekeepers do care about quality of the honey! I am sure that milk we are drinking is much less milk than honey is honey and I even do not want to think what is in chickens, farmed salmon, you name it ... As Russians always stated - life is dangerous because causes the death... Sergey

  8. #108
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Not if we put money into research for organics
    Sorry, but with 7 billion and growing, and our dependency on producing everything as cheaply as possible, ogranics are a pipedream. Studies have shown it's not even healthier anyway. Organic farmers are still allowed to use certain pesticides as well. If you're talking researching more organic pesticides/herbicides there is some potential, but still, costs are higher to produce them on large scales because of the biomass you have to process to reach your end product.

  9. #109
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake county, Indiana 46408-4109
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    3,544

    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Beeswax foundation primarily comes from cappings wax.
    Mark I have seen wax traded in on foundation @ 2 different dealers and I was ashamed to put the wax we traded in the same box, it looked NASTY in the box
    Ed, KA9CTT profanity is IGNORANCE made audible
    you can`t fix stupid not even with duct tape

  10. #110
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    Apr 2008
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    Fair Grove,MO,USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    cerezha,i have a 46 yr. old daughter(a teacher) and a 41 yr. old son,(a Anesthesiologist) both in good health.My son has been in 4 Ironman contest in 4 different states, and places in the 50's, not bad out of two or three thousand entries. My daughter takes after me, fishing and a gardener, and running after her third child, a 5yr. old.

    Mac, i'll have to go along with JRG13 on this one, too many mouths to feed in this old world and chemicals (sad to say) is the fast's way to mass produce crops. I truck farm 5 acres of my land and sell produce and honey at the local Farmers Market, i have to use some fungicide on some plants and insecticides as a last resort. Plants have new enemies (Japanese beetles for one) just like our bees and we have to learn to deal with them.People know me and trust me, if they ask i tell them if it was sprayed or not, and they know i don't use any chemicals (other than Fumagilin B, only when needed, and it's rare) in my hives (74 of them) They produced between 2500 to 3000 lbs. of honey and 6 med. supers of comb honey this year, even with the drought we had. This weekend is our towns Festival,(population of 1400) and it draws between 40 to 50 thousand people, Honey is all i'll have for sell and i usually sell out.

  11. #111
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    don't get me wrong, I'm not against organic, but the reality is at our current rate of growth, it's not feeding the world.

  12. #112
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    Feb 2012
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    408

    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    mac,
    neonic pesticides actually photodegrade so wax melting does purify some pesticide contamination.

  13. #113
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    brooksbeefarm - good for you and your family. I really jealous - I wish to have such life and piece of land for all my bee/gardening/grapes projects! I think your efforts to be more natural are bringing great fruits. It is really, really great! Sergey

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by BayHighlandBees View Post
    mac,
    neonic pesticides actually photodegrade so wax melting does purify some pesticide contamination.
    If one melts it in the solar melter with plastic "glass" - UV light is needed to decompose chemicals. Unfortunately, wax itself adsorbs UV and thus slow down the process of decomposition. But, in general, yes, UV and heat should reduce amount of pesticide in the wax at least by 10%. Sergey

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    ... Studies have shown it's not even healthier anyway. ...
    Not exactly true. Study shows that "nutrition value" is the same, which is absolutely true because carrot with or without pesticides has exactly the same amount of carbohydrates, proteins (if any), carotene etc. The difference is that "treated" carrot has extra stuff in it (chemicals), which authors of mentioned above "study" sadly "forget" to measure and count... Very bad science... Sergey

  16. #116
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    Apr 2008
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    Fair Grove,MO,USA
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    With the minimal amount of thin foundation (a starter strip) i use, i'm not concerned to much about eating my comb honey. The bees make 90% of new wax to draw the rest of it out, the old days when you set a hive out and the only worry was if it got weak the wax moths would take over, are gone. I remember the organic days when we would pick potatoe bugs off and tomato worms by hand,and we would get half the peach or apple and the worm got the other half, same with the ear worm on sweet corn. With chemicals we now get all of the above and the worm dies or goes somewhere elseMyself and i'm sure everyone else would love to live in the garden of Eden (i'm thinking it was organic) but man just keeps making things worse by greed and over population. Anyone have an answer.

  17. #117
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    Feb 2012
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    408

    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    as Sergey mentioned the wax gets photodegraded by UV light. The unmelted wax in the melter won't get cleansed much, due to its opacity to light, but the melting wax will get the full treatment. Neonic pesticides has a photodegration half life of between 4 hours -15 days depending on conditions so there I'd think with the right setup there would be significant upside beyond Sergey's quoted 10%.

    Of course the above only pertains to neonicotinoids, other pesticides would react differently to solar wax melting (or possibly not at all)

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by BayHighlandBees View Post
    ...would be significant upside beyond Sergey's quoted 10%...
    Since wax itself adsorbs UV, photodegradation reaction will happens only on the surface, which will dramatically reduce the overall efficiency of the process. To be efficient, I would imagine, wax needs to be constantly mixed to expose more chemical on the surface. Chocolate fountain comes in mind - put wax fountain outside in direct sunlight for 15 days and efficiency would be 50% (rough estimate)... but, yes, I agree, that it may be done. Prolonged heating would also degrade some chemicals. The bottom line is that beehive itself is a perfect place to store and accumulate nasty chemicals... Sergey
    Last edited by cerezha; 09-28-2012 at 06:53 PM.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    .... but man just keeps making things worse by greed and over population...
    I do not see how over population directly involved in creating more pollution? Most overpopulated countries are poor and just have no resources to produce nasty chemicals. Until recently, it was very true. Now, with emergency of China and India, my statement has less foundation. But I still do not think that overpopulation directly caused pollution. In case of China and India - pollution directly linked (in my opinion) to industrialization: 1000 years ago the bowl of rice was food for the whole day in China, 20 years ago in China, most rural areas feed on the bowl of rice a day... I have no idea what is going on in China today, but it seems to me, the tendency is that population growth is slowing down and pollution is growing. In my opinion, access to the modern western technology (synthesis of the complex chemicals etc) makes it very appealing to use chemicals to produce the same amount of food but cheaper. Sell it at the market price and get bigger profit. It is called "market economy". Unfortunately, in such simple equation, the damaging long-term effect on environment is not counted. Sergey

  20. #120
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    havana fl
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    Default Re: Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Sorry, but with 7 billion and growing, and our dependency on producing everything as cheaply as possible, ogranics are a pipedream. Studies have shown it's not even healthier anyway. Organic farmers are still allowed to use certain pesticides as well. If you're talking researching more organic pesticides/herbicides there is some potential, but still, costs are higher to produce them on large scales because of the biomass you have to process to reach your end product.
    I beg to differ http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields
    Iím really not that serious

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