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What type of bee hive is best for the home bee keeper

74K views 130 replies 35 participants last post by  kilocharlie 
#1 ·
Hello all I am considering taking on some bees this spring and would like to know what people think is the best type of hive. I mean if money were no object, and the health and safety of the bees was the top priority.

I am not saying I want to pay a ton of cash, but I am ok with buying something, or making somehting that is high quality since I only plan on have 1-2 bee hives total on my property. Once I have those boxes if I want to build more I have the design right there to copy :D

Thanks for you opinions.

It would be very helpful to point out the positives/negatives of the frames vs. bar top designs. I plan to be a bee keeper primarily for pollination, but also know I will get into extracting some honey and wax as it is available and doesn't hurt the hive.

Thanks!!
 
#41 ·
Mgolden, let me explain. With 9 frames in the brood chamber they draw it out more than ten but only to a certain extant as the brood cannot be reared in a cell that is too long. Therefore their is more space within the brood chamber. This reduces congestion and adds ventilation. Within the honey supers, you are correct, they draw out the cells as close as they would be in ten which makes them easier to uncap. Also, longer cells make longer bees. Why do you think queen breeders pick out the biggest queen cells. I dont make this stuff up.
 
#42 ·
Longer bees????????????

9 frames doesn't make a lot of sense in brood supers when trying to get the population built up.

If there is only a bee space between longer cells in a honey super, the air flow in the hive is than reduced to less area and technically less ventilation. And is irrelevant as bee modulate the air flow.
 
#44 ·
Ah ha! I found it! Well sort of. In the book abc and xyz of bee culture 34th edition on page 134-135, it states "Ursmar Baudoux,a belgian, in 1893 concieved the idea that larger cells could develop correspondingly larger bees with a longer tongue reach... By 1896 he apparently proved his theory so that a comb foundation manufacturer built a mill with enlarged cell bases. The results of the tests seemed to show not only larger bees, but a longer tongue reach and larger wings"

So a larger cell diameter does indeed make larger bees. The jury is still out wether longer cells will, but it makes sense to me and is the same principle.
 
#45 · (Edited)
In case you haven't realized it, you are being offered two conflicting schools of thought on frame spacing.

1. Put 9 frames in a 10 frame box to improve ventilation and allow the bees to draw the cells out more, which may produce larger/longer bees.

2. Put 11 narrow frames in a 10 frame box (or 9 frames in an 8 frame box), with either small-cell foundation or no foundation. This will produce smaller bees, which some beekeepers believe provides an advantage against mites.

I recommend sticking with standard frame spacing (10 frames in a 10-frame box or 8 in an 8-frame) to start with, unless you can find a good mentor who uses an alternative setup.

For whatever reason, beekeeping is less standardized than most modern agriculture, and it is quite common to see experienced, successful beekeepers practicing and promoting contradictory methods. Some of this has to do with regional differences, so I would encourage you to pay most attention to advice from nearby beekeepers, and to visit 3-5 bee yards in your area to see how the locals do things.

The treatment-free crowd is especially full of ideological differences, which arise as follows:
Beekeeper A is determined to be treatment-free, and experiments with a wide range of practices, hive designs, etc. Eventually she succeeds in reliably keeping bees on small-cell foundation in top bar hives, and quite logically concludes that this has something to do with survival. So she promotes this as a way to be treatment-free. Beekeeper B is also determined to be treatment free, but finds that his best survival occurs in triple-deep Langstroth hives with moisture quilts, so he promotes these changes as the best solutions. Both may be "correct", in a sense, in that both have developed bees that do well in a particular hive configuration and might not do as well in an alternative design.

I would encourage you not to commit to treatment-free in your first year or two. Maybe avoid chemicals that leave residues in wax, but be open to using the "standard" nosema (fumagilin) and mite (thymol, formic acid) treatments. I say this as a beekeeper who lost both of his hives in the first year. Going treatment-free means accepting higher losses for a few years, and if you have two hives "higher losses" may well mean you have no bees in spring. It's kind of like learning to swim. First you learn to float, then paddle, then eventually the butterfly. But if you tried to learn the butterfly first, you would struggle and probably sink, and you might give up on swimming as too hard.

To add to my earlier comments, Langstroth hives allow you to harvest honey without destroying the comb, but only if you have access to a honey extractor. If you aren't planning to buy an extractor, you will need to crush and strain, in which case the Langstroth advantage is less apparent.

Mark
 
#46 ·
So many of you are writing about 9 frames in a ten frame box and I just wanted to point out that my understanding is that this practice, where it may be something folks do in their brood chambers, the practice as I was taught was developed for use primarily in honey supers, not brood supers, so honey could be extracted from deeper combs. The idea being that in fact one can get more honey from 9 deep celled combs than one can get from ten combs not as deep celled.

I do quite often run 9 frames in my ten frame deeps, but they are not spaced but tight together. Logically deep celled combs would produce longer bees, but I don't know that this is actually so. Nor do I believe that queen rearers really select long bodied queens so they can lay in deep celled combs. An interesting idea, but I don't know if it is true or not.
 
#47 ·
Luterra - Since I don't have a mentor, nor do I know anyone in the bee keeping world aside from those folks who posted on this forum... Maybe I need to stick with the basics to get going, and keep reading to see if I am slick enough to spearhead a new or newer technique. I think that will be a bit before I am that confident haha Perhaps I should first get used to the bees :D

That is the tough part about starting out. You don't know what you don't know (a bit Yogi like, but you get my point). The key for me is putting bees in a hive and learning from them, and not taking too much from them. Of course with a simple question comes thousands of complex ways to answer it :D

All this and I still haven't even figured out where I will be getting bees
 
#48 ·
I agree that going standard and learning the basics first is very sound advice. There is a lot to learn and hard to learn until its hands on.

Think you will find on this site and elsewhere promoting 8 or 10 frames in a corrresponding deep sized brood box is the advice of some very experienced beekeepers.

Just wondering if bigger bees and longer bees produce more honey than short fat bees?????????
 
#49 ·
I guess its a bit late to enter this thread but if I were you I would start with 10 to 8 frame langstroth hives with frames and foundation. This in my experience is the easiest for beginners who are just trying to even get familar with beekeeping. I would not get involved with foundationless, small cell, top bar or even GASP treatement free for the first year or two at least. Find a good mentor and have them help you along, but remember start with the standard methods and learn rules before you try to break them with some of the alternative techniques mentioned in this thread--I know some here would disagree with me, but I think having someone have their bees live for a few seasons rather than combating all issues at once and having them perish is better for a new bee.

Also with 2 acres you can have plenty of hives--we have 3/4 of an acre here with 7 hives and no problems as long as you manage them properly
 
#50 ·
I guess its a bit late to enter this thread but if I were you I would start with 10 to 8 frame langstroth hives with frames and foundation. This in my experience is the easiest for beginners who are just trying to even get familar with beekeeping.
...~...
Also with 2 acres you can have plenty of hives--we have 3/4 of an acre here with 7 hives and no problems as long as you manage them properly
I think this is good for me. My lot is on 1/3 acre, but I back up to a large area, 3-400' before a railroad track (buried pipelines) and will not go over 5 hives as I have to register as an apiary with the state and I am sure my HOA would go nuts (business & all). Besides I think 5 is a good limit for my lot and what I want to do.
 
#51 ·
If you are not planning to stay in bees, go 10 frame so you can sell easier. If you plan on buying used equipment go 10 frame.

I guess I am against the grain. While everyone else is going 8 fame, I have started changing over to 13 frame, (a square hive., not rectangular.) I make all my own, don't plan on selling, and I don't care what happens to it when I am gone, I will be 70 years old in May, but I do not have any trouble manipulating them. Only one deep for brood, and two shallows are more than three 8 frame shallows. Less equipment, less height.

cchoganjr
 
#54 ·
I guess I am against the grain. While everyone else is going 8 fame, I have started changing over to 13 frame, (a square hive., not rectangular.) cchoganjr
I hope I wasn't the bad influence on you.

 
#53 ·
One thing that may have escaped you guys using 9 frames in a 10-frame box is that the 11 narrowed, 1 1/4" wide frames go in the brood box with 4.9mm cell size foundation to get more bees and less mites, and the 9 frames go in the honey supers in order to draw the same amount of honey in fewer frames. If the honey supers are made foundationless, the bees will draw out what looks like drone comb, but is actually sized for storing honey, larger than worker cells, but almost as big as drone cells. Not too bad a setup, really. I would happily buy such a rig.
 
#56 ·
Standard Langstroth equipment is probably the best for starting out. TBHs can get to be a real pain unless you hounddog them all the time, they weren't developed for best beekeeping practice, but instead to provide the least costly means of maintaining hives. Langs have great advantages, particularly honey production and ease of management.

If you have the equipment (table saw with dado blade) and skill, you can make your own boxes easily, but you will really only save the cost of shipping pre-cut boxes. For me that's a large sum, almost doubles the cost, but if you can pick them up you won't save much. Lots of fun though.

Boxes are permanent for the most part. lasting decades with minimal care, so they should not be a huge expense. Frames are cheap, but again if you have a garage full of odds and ends wood like I do, and shop at the box stores in the scrap pile, they aren't all that hard to make and it's fun.

I make my own bottom boards (screened) and top covers, and those are MUCH cheaper than purchased. 3/8" plywood, some 1 x 4 and a few hours and I can knock out several. I like them much better than plastic, I cover them with aluminum flashing.

You will also need good paint or other permanent outdoor wood treatment to keep the boxes from rotting at the joints. Any color will do, you can probably pick up a gallon of off-tint at the box store for $5. Likely only loud pink (which seems to be the only color I ever find there) but the bees won't care.

You probably won't need a bee suit -- a veil and long sleeves and pants works for me. Do watch bending over and squeezing bees between your belly and belt, they will sting you even if they don't want to! Ditto for letting them crawl up a pant leg! A nice smoker will last you a lifetime, in fact a cheapo will last a lifetime if it's all metal but the bellows.

Peter
 
#58 ·
I have been following this thread, and I too am just starting out and will get my first bees next spring. I have built a top bar hive, and have been thinking about a lang type hive as well to compare. This thread has gotten me very interested in 8 frame mediums. I have been looking at western bee supply ( which seems to be the most reasonable on wooden ware that i've found) I see hive bodies in 8 or 10 but they don't say medium or deep then they have supers in 3 different sizes.I would like to go foundationless, what exactly would I need to order?
 
#59 ·
I would like to go foundationless, what exactly would I need to order?
The brood/super boxes come in three sizes, deep, medium and shallow. Th exact depth I don't remember, but you can google the depth of the boxes. The medium sized box will be the one you want if you want to run mediums. To be safe, just call and tell them you want to run mediums, and they will be sure to get you the right sized box.

Since you want to go foundationless, pretty much any medium frame will do. You might want to get some wire, or fishing line, to add some strength. I would suggest you look at tthe Mann Lake PF120 frames. They provide small cell size, and might be really nice for a beginner to get started on.

Shane
 
#60 ·
Hive bodies are deeps in beekeeper talk most of the time, so I'm sure that Western means deeps. You want medium supers which you will use as hive bodies instead of deeps.

I personally prefer wedge style frames with divided bottom bars since it's easy to flip the wedge sideways and make a nice comb guide and if you do use wired foundation (which I also recommend) it stays put. You can use whatever suits you, there are several styles, but make sure you get the correct foundation for the frames you are using, else it won't fit.

Wire all frames -- the bees will build the comb around the wires just fine. Some people like to use nylon fishing line instead, and that's OK too, but I DO recommend wires, especially with wired foundation. Otherwise, it ALWAYS sags since the vertical wires are bent (they come on a roll and keep some curve when the foundation is rolled). Flat comb is much nicer, believe me. It is much less likely that you will drop comb out of the frame with wire, too, and extracting is safer, although I have to say we have not blown out a comb in the seven years we've been involved this time around, and I don't remember my grandpa saying anything about it either even when I cranked the extractor too fast.

I don't recommend putting bees in a hive with only foundationless frames, it can take quite a while to persuade them to put the comb where you want it instead of where they want it -- in cold damp weather they are as likely to build it across the frames as along them, wanting "cold way" comb to cut down on airflow.

I would recommend starting with at least 4 frames of foundation, then putting an empty frame between fully drawn and capped comb as the hive expands. It's more work, but you will get better comb. Then, when you add another box, pull up two drawn frames with an empty between, put the empties where the drawn ones were, etc and you will be fine.

Otherwise you get a mess. I've got some problems in one hive I will have to fix next spring where the bees only partially drew a foundationless frame out, and extended the comb at the bottom from the sides bridging it together. I didn't want to go cutting comb up when I was trying to get them up to weight for winter, so I'll fix it in the spring when they will be drawing comb like crazy. I left them empty since I ran out of foundation, should have moved them between capped comb but I got busy.

You should be prepared to get a significant amount of drone comb on the first few foundationless frames. Move this to a location a couple frames in, at the edge of the brood nest, when you can. That way the bees can use it to make drones when they want them and not put them between boxes and in the honey supers, which is what they do otherwise.

Have fun, beekeeping is great, especially when you get to extract you first full super of honey!

Peter
 
#63 ·
Hello everyone. Very sweet subject, could not resist! Well, I am completing my first year and feel I have something to share. First, couple of general comments:
- for beginner it is absolutely essential to have all equipment of the same type/size. If it is 8-frame medium Lang - everything should be the same size. It is very important to be able to interchange frames, boxes etc.
- Even if you are planning to be small, plan to have a few extra boxes if it is Lang or Warre. If TB, it should be build keeping in mind the need to grow (longer). You also need to have extra frames etc.
- it is really bad idea to have hives of different design/type/size - decide first and than stuck to one type.

Now, the hot subject "Lang or not Lang"! I have my personal opinion on this:
- there are number of different beehive designs other than Lang. All of them are doing very well in other places. It is only US crazy about Lang. The biggest advantage of the Lang is its universal dimensions - all hardware with small limitations are interchangeable. Because of universal dimensions,it is convenient for commercial beekeeping.
- Now,we have two principal designs: vertical and horizontal.
- Vertical permits expansion of the hive easily by adding additional boxes; vertical beehives normally manipulated by the box - remove, add the box; how many boxes big the hive... There are two major problems with this design: (1) boxes are heavy; (2) rearranging the boxes requires to break hive apart, which some people believe is too much intrusion for the bees. Thus, Warre design with minimal intrusion, but it is still necessary to move heavy boxes.
- Horizontal design have deal with the frame (bar). Frames/bars may be easily added, moved etc without breaking apart the whole hive. Many believed that this is more bee-friendly approach. Once nest is growing, additional frames may be added. Specific horizontal colony management provides ways for swarm management and honey collection. It is debated which design is more "natural" - vertical or horizontal. It is my understanding that in nature both, standing and horizontal logs used by bees. In fact, many traditional old beehives have a horizontal design, horizontal log basically.
- At the level of "frame" one need to choose between foundation-foundationless and frame-frameless. Traditionally, foundation is used in combination with the frame. Foundation is supposed to accelerate the comb making process (debatable). It is well documented that wax accumulates chemicals used to treat beehives. Recycling the wax as it often happens in commercial beekeeping would accumulate chemicals in the reclaimed wax. Thus, more people is interested in foundationless approach when bees create their own comb. Foundationless is less suitable to commercial approach, centrifugal honey extraction in particular. "Standard" frame is a part of Lang's beehive. Other beehives have other standards. Many horizontal beehives used only top bar.
 
#64 ·
Not disagreeing w/ Sergey just to be disagreeable, but, for well over hundred of years beekeepers have kept bees in two deep hive bodies for brood chambers and some other size box, shallows, mediums, Illionois Deeps, Westerns, comb honey supers, cut comb supers or whatever, and done so quite well and successfully. So, even though standard sizes of boxes is a good idea, in the horizontal dimension, the vertical depth of boxes is a choice one might aught to make depending on what one can lift.

One need not keep a hive of bees in 3 mediums, plus medium honey supers. Or two deeps and the honey supers. You could go to all shallows if that suits you. Personally, I feel that the larger the comb available to a queen the easier it is for her to lay a pattern w/out breaking the space.

I don't know that it really matters, it's just something I feel. Mr. Dadant felt so too at one time, therefore the Jumbo Dadant supers and frames. Which were too large, heavy, and cumbersome to move, so they didn't fit those wishing to move hives. One has to fit the equipment to themselves, the beekeeper and let the bees tell you whether it suits them.

There is no real answer to the Thread Title Question. There is only personal preference and experience. I hope you aren't overloaded to the point you can't make a decision. Maybe you should join a club and visit other beekeepers and see their equipment.
 
#65 ·
There is no real answer to the Thread Title Question. There is only personal preference and experience. I hope you aren't overloaded to the point you can't make a decision. Maybe you should join a club and visit other beekeepers and see their equipment.
I am a first year newbee so only my view. My Lang. hives originally were all wood frame plasticell, which the bees built on nicely. I have 3 10 frame hives with box hardware for 2 deeps per hive and 2 med. supers per hive. In hindsight yes the 8 frame boxes are lighter, yes I can convert $$ issue only as the frames will migrate. Full deeps are heavy and harder to lift than 8 frame med. supers. I have also started putting in the Walter Kelley foundationless frames and have made some groove top & bottom frames foundationless with 1/16" plywood both are being drawn out by the bees. Foundationless is more fragile and higher risk in an extractor (mine have no wires or monofillament). Med. supers like mine can be cut into comb blocks or cut and strain. You will need to place empty foundationless between filled frames to keep from getting cross comb issues. I have placed one between two non drawn plasticell frames and they filled the space from the foundationless guide to the edge of the empty plasticell foundation in the next frame.
Basically my brief experienced has shown me that the bees will build on any of the available options beeks have. As I will probably always be10 hives or less I do not have to worry about standardization for my extraction process like commercial ventures are driven to for economic reasons. If I was going to start again I would probably go with the 8 frame boxes and med. supers as a standard size, but will stick with what I have for now. Spring I will also start two Top Bar Hives from Honey Bee Habitat since their bars are designed to fit in the standard Lang. hives (good to start comb before putting your package bees in the TBH).
May the Force be with you. The bees will teach you.
 
#71 ·
BeeCurious, My girls have been drawing out the WTK foundationless deep frames wonderfully. I think I got 20 of them and have 10 installed with 4 fully drawn out in 3 hives. I think two are mostly honey and two are almost exclusive brood. The rest are in progress and doing well.
 
#74 ·
Mike,
my bees are cranky most of the time... at some degree... I guess,they have the same nightmares as I am - that 6 mediums tall hive will collapse and roll down the hill... I think, at this point, the direction is different, what bees would do and what I shall do... I need to prepare emergency bee-plan.
 
#77 ·
This is actually a pretty good video using what looks like the beveled frame with the solid bottom.

I think this is really cool too because it looks like this guy is using foundationless for deeps with success (he just wires them for support). I wasn't sure if the bees would build comb down with that wire present. It looks like they do according to this guy. If anyone has had luck with this please let me know too. I think I want to aspire to foundationless, and still haven't decided for or against using deeps for the hive body because I wasn't sure if they would have enough support.
 
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