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Should I consolidate brood downward?

8K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  taxonomy 
#1 ·
I'm inspecting tomorrow. My bees usually hang out high in the top boxes. Is it to early to start moving them down into the bottom box and getting frames in place for winter? Or am I hurrying things along too quickly?
 
#2 ·
A valid question deserves some kind of answer.

My opinion: Not too early, but marginally too late. In our area the colony has been arranging the brood nest for winter since early August. They intend to winter in the box(s) they are in now. To rearrange their brood nest now would be a major disruption.

Walt
 
#7 ·
Seymore: You didn't mention how many boxes your hive is in. If you can take a peak at your bottom box and it is essentially empty then pull it out, its not serving any purpose, if it has a small amount of brood along the top bars then wait a couple of weeks to do so. If there is lots of activity down there then do what Mike says.
 
#10 ·
It depends on your flow. I know many on this thread disagree but all the books will tell you bees can starve with honey below the cluster. May not be such an issue as far south as you are though. If i were you id knock it down to two boxes and put the heaviest box on top assuming your using deeps.
 
#12 ·
Thanks, Df, that's what I have read a lot too, and have had people tell me to do - move honey to the outside, brood to the inside and down - and remove an empty bottom box if there, as you suggest. Reason given is that bees move up. Hard to move up if they are already at the top. Here, they recommend giving a couple weeks of 2:1 (if necessary) in October and then rearrange. I just wondered why wait, if I was doing an inspection and it seems so Fall all of a sudden. I'll open them up and just see what they look like. Seems they always have that empty bottom box. I use 8fr meds. 3 boxes have seemed to work well for winter here, with leftovers. But they have been mild winters so far.
 
#13 ·
Do you have honey below the cluster? Since it seems like you tend towards doing what you asked about in the original post, may I suggest that you not move frames, but supers, if you do have an empty box on thge bottom. Take it out, putting everything back together the way it was w/out the bottom box on the bottom. Then put the bottom box, which is empty, on the top and feed, feed, feed. Maybe they will fill that box and you will have feed above brood, as is your goal.

How many years have you been wintering 8 frame mediums 3 medium supers high in AR? What has worked for you in the past?
 
#14 ·
Mark, I have had 3 springs already but my 3rd winter is coming up - so only 2 winters using 8 frame mediums. Screened IB and BB. I mislead by comment above - "3 boxes have seemed to work well for winter here, with leftovers." I have used 4 boxes but they don't seem to use the bottom box and there has been plenty of honey leftover. BUT, the catch I suppose is "mild winter." Maybe I shouldn't test my theory just yet.

No, no honey below the cluster. When I went in yesterday, the brood was pretty much where I would have thought it should be. Yes, shock, the bees knew what to do.
 
#19 ·
When I went in yesterday, the brood was pretty much where I would have thought it should be. Yes, shock, the bees knew what to do.
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Exactly! And why you should leave them alone. There's nothing wrong with haveing an extra brood box on the bottom...in fact I would say they're better off with empty combs below the cluster for winter. Safer there than in storage where moths and mice can get at the combs.
 
#15 ·
I think you are experiencing what most beekeeper experience and that is that the bees are quite often up above the bottom of a hive and the bottom of the combs is empty. Then over winter the bees move up leaving more comb empty. You might want to close down the entrance some.
 
#16 ·
Are you thinking it is breezy? I do have the screened bottom board in addition to a slatted rack. It gets pretty dang toasty here in the summer. But even before I added the slatted rack, they were up high. Course, they build comb down to the slatted racks...
 
#18 ·
My bees are still very much in the bottom box with a good bit of brood.
8 frame.
I do use slatted rack and wonder if some of you think the claims of better bottom box use may be right?
We had a very slow August (even hotter and dryer than normal) but the past several weeks bees have been very busy, at least partly with stickweed and goldenrod. And partly I've been feeding 1:1 for 4 weeks (might have started Aug 1 but didn't).
 
#23 ·
You could try both ways, if you have more than one hive. Then you would have some idea.

Friends of mine, when they were trying to decide whether wrapping was worth the trouble, wrapped half the hives in each yard for a cpl of winters and decided wrapping was worthwhile. So, you could follow what you have read or follow the voice of experience (Michael Palmer), or follow both and see what happens. Me, I'd follow Michaels advice.
 
#21 ·
I don't know what you mean by too much space. I winter bees in all kinds of different configurations. From one deep to four, three mediums to six. Nucs of all sizes.

As long as the colony has set up their winter broodnest, have a good population of young bees, and are in contact with and have enough stores overhead, it doesn't matter how many boxes of comb are below the cluster. Remember...the bees heat the cluster, not the entire hive.
 
#24 ·
As long as the colony has set up their winter broodnest, have a good population of young bees, and are in contact with and have enough stores overhead, it doesn't matter how many boxes of comb are below the cluster. Remember...the bees heat the cluster, not the entire hive.
This is true only if the cludter is at the top of the hive. Heat rises. I also have to ask why you would leave extra boxes on the hive. If its more honey than they need take it off and sell it. If its empty boxes take em off and store, six less months of weathering. You may say do not desturb the hive, let the bees do it their way. But if we let them have their way they would swarm at least twice a year.
 
#22 ·
Hmm. Ok, got it on heating the cluster not the hive. Good point. On space... I have always been told only give the bees what they can afford to guard. I think this has been mostly in relation to SHB and wax moth. If there are boxes unattended, they could fall prey to them. Now that I think about it though... They are not a winter issue... Hmmm....
 
#25 ·
It kind of depends on where you feel that your empty combs can be stored more safely. It dosent take much of an opening for a mouse to squeeze in and they love to nest in a hive through the winter. If you are confident in the quality of your equipment I suppose the only downside is the rot and weathering it's exposed to assuming that ithere is a strong hive above it, personally I prefer a warehouse with some mouse poison if you think there could be a problem.
 
#27 ·
Yes, Mark, I personally think it's silly not to follow the voices of experience found online here. That's why I ask so many questions. But to be successful in most things, understanding the Logic behind something (bees heat the cluster, not the hive) will expedite that learning curve and equip a person to think on their own two feet rather leaving them to just blindly follow a rule. My questions may seem blatantly obvious to some, but I don't live and breathe bees every single second (though my husband would surely disagree with that comment!) so grasping some concepts is sometimes hard for me. Filtering out what is accurate is frequently difficult. Remembering what I did one season, that I don't have to do for another year, when I've only done it one time before that, also creates its own set of challenges.

As much as my brain tells me Mr. Palmer is very experienced (and whose input I very much appreciate btw!), I simply cannot understand it till I understand it. Ya know...

I know you guys get frustrated with us newbies (And I still feel VERY new after 3 springs and 2 winters!). The replies sometimes given in this community seem to point to that anyway. Just know, I DO appreciate the time you all take to answer our seemingly stupid questions. Giving back; mentoring - if we didn't Need you all, we wouldn't Bee here.
 
#28 ·
I certainly hope my frustration does not show, if I feel frustrated. I see my participation here as a sort of service. Answering questions the best I can.

I appreciate you asking questions and asking more questions to try to understand the reasons why something aught to be done the way someone says it aught to. That shows you have a brain and can think, wishing to understand. I hope you never stop and will one day be experienced and confident enough to share what you have learned.

Never give up the persuit of knowledge and understanding. Those who know that they do not know are very valuable to others who know they do not know, ya know? I know I do not know all the answers or even the right answers all of the time. Don't assume otherwise.

We are all in this together, like iot or not.
 
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