Reversing Hive Bodies Late Season HELP!

[postie]

I am placing this post in Beekeeping 101 because I may have done something basically sound or basically very wrong. It was one of those "in the field" decisions that kept me from posting about it first. I did by phone ask some older beekeepers and definitely got more differing answers than questions asked! So, here is what I've done (or what has happened).

I started two colonies just this past Spring (March 26) ending up with a setup of 2 deep brood boxes. They seem to have done well over the summer despite our too hot, then too wet, then too hot weather (upper East TN). One colony has always tended to be a little stronger than the other, but both have checked out well during inspections. It is now the last day of August and I did a minimal inspection on Monday, August 26 (minimal meaning confirming presence of Queen, eggs, brood in various stages, did not go to bottom box). After attending a bee club meeting on Monday night, part of the discussion (from experienced guest speaker) included feeding and hive body reversal. In my specific location, there appears to be very little pollen or nectar for the bees to collect. The guest speaker is already feeding her colonies (she also has a commercial operation) and she is providing pollen substitute as well. There were mixed reviews amongst the members of the club concerning feeding at this time or providing pollen substitute at all. Ask 5 beekeepers, get 7 answers thing.

As we discussed the reversal of hive bodies, the general consensus seems to be that reversal is only to be done in Spring, however there were some who have found it necessary to reverse hive bodies at different times. Due to all this discussion, and FULL inspection of my colonies today, I concluded that the stronger hive would benefit from hive body reversal for the following reasons:

I placed the top hive body box on a little earlier than normal because that colony insisted on make Queen cells. My local inspector came out and took a look and we decided together that going ahead with the top box might give them extra room to deter building Queen cells or possibly swarming. It worked well...the Queen moved up fairly quickly and Queen cells disappeared, although that colony appears to have replaced it's Queen on it's own at least three times (but I have been able to SEE the Queen upon every inspection). The downside to adding the upper box early was of course it deterred the bees from filling out the foundation/comb on the outside as they want to move on up (this was expected).

Today, I checked the weight of the colony and it felt light. I proceeded with the full inspection (including all of the lower box). What I found was two frames of brood, capped and several but not excessive bees attending. There was "some" pollen, hardly any nectar and no honey stored in the lower box. In the UPPER box, I found brood, excellent pattern in at least 8 frames, maybe three or four cells with some pollen, no nectar and only two frames with a tiny amount of capped honey on the right and left upper corners. Therefore I have determined that either the girls have not stored anything for winter yet or have eaten most of their stores due to weather and lack of food sources.

I removed the frames from the lower box that had not even been drawn out and placed them in the next to last (outside) positions of the upper box. I took the two frames of capped brood from the lower box and placed them in the center of the upper box near the frame with the Queen on it. I then reversed the hive bodies putting the Queen back below with ALL her brood and all the daughters living right with her. That left in the upper box only outside frames not yet drawn out, some frames with minimal pollen and nectar, and also providing plenty of room for her to move back upwards! With even a little luck we should have AT LEAST 2 more months of decent flying weather (days above 55). We usually start getting light frost mid-end Oct. This should give the Queen time to move back up to the upper box (as the lower box is packed with brood) and also give plenty of room for the bees to start saving up their stores again for cold weather. There are no honey supers on the hives, I have started feeding them (they congregated quickly on the syrup to feed), and have placed a pollen pattie in a bird house on a hook about 10 feet away from the hives (to prevent small hive beetles from thriving on the patties INSIDE the colony). The bees have not yet investigated the patties throughout the day (Patties made from Megabee dry and local honey from a close friend and a few drops of HoneyBHealthey). Syrup is mixed 2:1.

Now...I know this is long and difficult to read, but I am asking anyone who's willing to point out whether I have helped my colony or caused a disaster. I do not have a mentor because whenever mentors are mentioned at bee meeting, all the old timers start looking at the floor and out the windows scared to death someone might ask them for help...so I had to make this decision on my own at the time of inspection today (I did not want to open the hives several days in a row toying with decision making.

I understand that I disturbed the "nest", but need to know if I made a sound decision.

Please critique my actions as honestly as you can. I am a fairly new beekeeper (this year) and rather than try to force honey storage for me to steal, my aim is to make my colonies as strong as possible for the coming winter.

As a side note, I left my weaker colony as is because they seem to have plenty of room to do what they do naturally (although they have no stores either). But I am feeding.

Thanks ahead to anyone willing to read all of this...and I will add or answer any questions to get a clearer idea of how to best take care of my bees!!!

[psfred]

Hive top feeders with lots of 1:1 syrup and half a pound of pollen supplement pronto -- your bees are limited in protein if they don't have any stored at this time of year. Winter bee production will start soon, if your hives are not stuffed with pollen right now you will end up with weak bees.

I suspect heavy feeding would force the queen down as the bees filled the top box with honey, but reversing them won't hurt I don't think.

Peter

[wcubed]

You did very well. No doubt a benefit of not having a mentor to provide some bum dope. There have been several threads recently with a similar situation - brood in the top deep and an essentially empty bottom deep. The consensus opinion was to " leave it alone." Although I disagree, we abstained.

I have my reasons for your decision being a good one, but the subject is complex, and I'm pressed for time. If there is some flac on this subject, will come back to it later.

Walt

[psfred]

I agree the brood needs to be in the bottom deep, but since there are no stores to speak of, is it better to reverse or to simply "feed them down"?

This is exactly the situation I had last year with a late summer dearth, and since I didn't either reverse or feed heavily due to ignorance and travel, I lost the hive this spring to wax moths and EFB.

Peter

[postie]

Thank you very much for the replies...I hated to make the post so long but being fairly new at beekeeping I wanted to be clear with details that caused me to make what I considered a major decision at this time of year. I've also gotten that "just leave them alone" advice but while I don't want to micromanage my bees into disaster, neither do I want to neglect them because of my own ignorance or mistakes. And while summer is not quite over, I just didn't see where they were going to put their stores (and seeing that they had none) I felt they needed space. I'm hoping that I did not disturb the "nest" beyond recovering in time for cold weather, but in watching the bees over the evening and up until dark, they continued to be calm and their behavior was just like every other night. I understand that I cannot see the stress going on inside the colony, but I did not observe stressful behavior outside the entrance. I also believe that the Queen has time to make it back up top to raise some brood before winter and that will give the bees their needed heat (by moving up). I'm hoping they aren't slow in rebuilding or rearranging what I altered and end up stuck in the bottom box in cold weather. I do know this might doom them when they cluster. I think I did take a risk...especially this being my first time wintering a colony, but I did think carefully before doing it. The replies tonight have relieved my stress a great deal!!! I'm hoping also that adding the pollen patties (outside the hive) will stimulate the colony enough to produce at a rate that will move them back to the top box at the right time.

I might add that I have no plans to reverse the 2nd weaker colony as they seem to have ample room, but I will continue to feed as heavily as they will accept and keep pollen substitute available as they will take it. It will also give me a comparison, although each hive is as individual as a fingerprint!

Thanks again and I hope to get more replies and advice and criticism is always welcome...if I've made a mistake, I'll learn from it and be a better beekeeper.

[jadell]

Learning is always a good thing. I'll be the guy to say I would have left them alone and just fed them. Why would you reverse them to get them into the second deep if they were already there? Do you have a fall flow where you are? You're not that far from me and we do. They should backfill the upper box when the bees hatch with fall nectar and that pushes the queen down into the bottom box for winter. I doubt you have doomed them, they still have time to rearrange everything the way they want it. Glad you're feeding if they have no stores. I've never heard of placing pollen sub away from the hive, so I don't know if that will work. Just wanted to tell you why the "old" guys said to leave them alone. We learn new things every day. (I'm not one of the old guys!)

[postie]

Thank you jadell for replying. The top was so full of brood (and the Queen) there was too little room for them to store for winter (that's what was in my head). Everyone was living upstairs and I moved them downstairs to work their way up. We normally have a flow here (I'm near Jonesborough, TN), but this year the weather was so uncooperative that gardens have already been mowed off (nothing producing). There's a little goldenrod and other wild food sources blooming now, but I can't see a single bit of it within the bees flying range (I've looked in fields, yards, side of road, etc.). People around me are trying to mow fields for what little hay it may have, which also takes a lot of little wild blooms. Just seems food is short and going to stay short this year. Right now the bees are having to rely quite a bit on personal flower gardens within range (my neighbor mentioned it...lol).

There are LOTS of small hive beetles here and I've already seen a few; the pollen patties inside the hive just loads the colony up with more beetles which I know everyone already knows about. In our bee club meeting, the guest speaker we had gave some alternative ideas that she has used with success (she is commercial and also has bees for personal use). The pollen pattie in the bird house was one of those ideas. Of course the pollen can't get wet so the bird house gives it cover and you can place the pattie a few feet away from the hive. She claims it works well...my bees have not tried it out yet (I just put it yesterday aft.). I made the pattie with honey rather than syrup and I swiped a little strip of honey at the entrance of the "pollen house". The secret is never moving it. Once and if the bees find it, that's where they will always look for it. Move it 10 feet, they return to the old spot! We'll see if they find it! I almost used 4" pvc pipe to make a "housing" for the pattie...I think that would be a good option! Thanks again...I appreciate everyone's opinion...it gives me choices to make based on experience

Plan to feed all they will take in both colonies...they were all over the food when I put it out!

[psfred]

Dry pollen supplement might be less attractive to the hive beetles, and the bees will collect it just like pollen IF they are foraging for pollen. One of the odd things about bees is that if they are starving, they will only collect nectar, not pollen. Put a pollen patty on the brood nest and suddenly they will be hauling pollen like crazy if it's available.

Put a quarter of a protein patty over the brood nest and check in a few days -- if they are short of protein, they will take that patty and store what they don't eat and it will be gone in day or two, no chance for the beetles to get started on it.

Sounds to me as if you will be feeding quite a bit this fall, you have it worse than we do. I think my bees are on the spotty, scraggly soybeans that finally came up after the second planting and we should be getting some rain out of Issac (although not yet) so I'll be OK with the large swarm, have to feed the small one I think.

[postie]

I've considered offering just the dry pollen just haven't been really sure how to go about it the most beneficial way. Most days I spend a good deal of time watching the entrance to see who/what is coming and going. For a lot of days there simply was no pollen coming in and that was evidenced in the lack of pollen on the inside. Well, in checking this morning, both colonies are carrying in quite a lot of pollen. It has been mentioned in my bee clubs lately that about 10 bees a minute bringing in pollen makes for a good supply. Both my colonies are bringing in a great deal more than that...still not visiting the pollen patties, but apparently they've found a substantial source...makes for good news today I did find 3 dead bees underneath the pollen house I made...I'll keep a watch to see if that's coincidence or a sign of ensuing problem...

[Mike Gillmore]

This is an interesting topic, one which I'm sure has a very wide range of answers or suggestions.

Thinking about this I'm wondering ... had this been a spring swarm that took up residence in a hollow tree in the same general location, what would the brood nest and and internal configuration look like right now if the bees were left to make their own decisions without human interference?

[psfred]

A wild colony in a hollow tree would look just like the OP's hive -- brood up near the top with no honey reserve. They would have moved up as the honey got used and stay there unless and until nectar comes in. At that point, they would start rearing brood lower down and store honey in the area currently used for brood as it opens up.

No boxes or movable frames or comb in a feral hive, they move up and down or sideways as needed to expand and contract the brood nest.

Reversing boxes disrupts the hive, especially if the brood nest gets split up while doing so. In the current case, with heavy feeding I suspect the bees will just fill the empty comb with honey and keep the brood on the bottom, which was the intent. Quite possibly, it was not necessary to do so, but since he didn't split the brood nest, I don't see any complications, and it may help them get adequate stores right away.

In a more typical year, there would have been considerable honey stores in the top deep, around here usually 6 frames or so, with the rest in the center brood, and they fill that starting about now and move down into the bottom deep completely. In a dearth, though, they stay up, and this can cause trouble as I found out last year.

Peter

[wcubed]

Peter has a good grasp of what's happening inside the bee colony, and we have complimented him before on his responses here on beesource. But let me throw in a few observations made here in TN. The question came from east TN and I think them relevant.

Some say that the bees "don't care" what kind of boxes they are housed in. They may not "care" but the configuration of the Lang DOES influence their use of the boxes. In the wild colony, with continuous comb, top to bottom of the cavity, they can slide the brood nest continuously up and down with pollen at the bottom and honey at the top. In the Lang box arrangement, with a periodic break in functional comb, they exibit some reluctance to slide across the break, and they apparently don't like the broodnest spanning the gap. This reluctance shows up to a greater extent in backing down than building up. When expanding the brood nest upward in the spring, they are motivated by the reproductive urge. A strong driver.

We have had a couple seasons locally where nearly half of the colonies reached early fall with the cluster in the top box. So, it's apparent that the seasonal forage has an effect on this situation. One thing is fairly certain - the colony that backfills the upper deep in swarm preps is likely to be constrained to the lower deep for the remainder of the early-
season flow. Capping honey in the top box during the flow makes it more likely.

The added problems of stopping swarms and this nuisance factor caused us to move away completely from double deeps quite early in our beekeeping. With a single deep and the rest all shallows, The basic brood nest stays in the deep - year round.

At this point in the season, the colony is not easily encouraged to go lower by feeding. The upper deep has been selected for winter preps. The fall brood nest expansion to rear fattened bees for wintering has been in work through august and they will get another full brood cycle this month, prior to brood nest reduction in Oct. By their system, closing out the brood nest by backfilling would normally meet their needs for wintering here. I just feel that it would help them to have additional space (comb) overhead to store more honey where they want it for their reserve.

Walt

[postie]

I do use the Lang hives and started out this year with the two deep boxes because that is the "norm"...ALTHOUGH, many many people in my community (from the bee clubs) are changing their arrangement to all mediums which makes everything interchangeable. Some stick a shallow super with some honey frames in between for winter (one fellow mentioned he did this), some reverse their hives ONLY in Spring no matter what, some keep only 1 deep box in winter and yet others winter over some bees in nucs. It is so diverse that decision making for new beekeepers can be overwhelming. Before I set up my colonies (2), I had lots of folks tell me "you just get those bees situated in their house and leave them alone to do their work"! Other people said "check those colonies (inspection) at least every two weeks". Still others said only inspect once a month or so otherwise the bees will be interrupted and stop production temporarily because inspections do damage to their homes. I've been told NEVER rearrange the frames, I've been told to definitely rearrange frames when necessary in order for the bees to utilize all frames appropriately. LOL I've read and researched extensively as well (spent all of last winter doing that) and read as many different opinions as the ones I was told in person. Therefore, I simply have to watch my personal bees, their environment both near the hive and surrounding foraging area and treat each colony as individual.

My hopeful outcome is that in both colonies the bees will be in the top box for winter (for added heat), supply a little ventilation to prevent "rain" from drowning bees due to condensation in winter, feed all that outdoor temperature will allow (all winter when possible), and reverse the boxes again in Spring hopefully at just the right time to prevent swarming. In the colony I reversed this week, the bees will have to have time to make it back up to the top box and winter over. In the colony (somewhat weaker) that I left alone, they are already in the top box and should stay until Spring if they make the winter successfully. It is all so touch and go.

The bees have ignored the pollen patties thus far but are gobbling up syrup like crazy. They have also started bringing in much more pollen!

I do have a question on swarming but will post that in a separate thread.

Thanks again for these great posts and comments. As I learn more and more I'm sure changes will come as I understand them better

[psfred]

Thanks for the comments Walt, it clarifies my thinking a bit. Also makes a case for a Dadant 'jumbo" deep instead of two standard deeps.

As for wanting the bees in the top box, I want mine in the bottom box, that way if we get a long, cold winter, as we do once in a while, they will end up in the top box but still have honey in the spring. If they start out in the top box, they might run out of accessable stores during the winter and starve -- it gets cold enough here that they are clustered most of December, January, and February except on warm days. They cannot access stores when clustered unless the stores are "underfoot", the bees freeze to death if they attempt to leave the cluster.

Use an entrance reducer to cut down on the airflow into the hive in the winter. Keeps mice out too. A notched inner cover is sufficient to provide enough ventilation to prevent condensation unless your temps get down to zero on a regular basis, in which case you should probably be wrapping your hives, too.

Peter

[wcubed]

I agree with ps. Postie really doesn't want his bees in the top deep in late winter. We mentioned swarm prevention in this case. Late winter reversal actually aids the colony in generation of the reproductive swarm. In the case of field forage and flying weather coming together, brood jumps into the upper - half a deep or more. In contrast, if the colony has to consume capped honey to make the space, brood nest expansion is much slower. What reversal does is give the colony a faster start in meeting swarm prep requirements. They reach their minimum honey (nectar in this case) reserve and start backfilling sooner. If you recognize that there is a cut off period for commitment to swarm, its easy to see that the reversed empty colony has the advantage.

Slightly off topic, I'm not a fan of the movement to the all-medium config. One break in the functional comb is one too many. Adding additional breaks compounds the problem.

Walt

[postie]

At this time, I do not like the all-medium setup either, however I'm quick to say I have had no experience with this setup. It just seems somehow to make things easier and less expensive in the long run for the beekeeper and detrimental to the colony because these "all-the-same-size" boxes are being manipulated too frequently (imo from what I'm hearing).

What they have taught us in bee club presentations and also in Master Beekeeping School through University of Tennessee (Dr. John Skinner) is bees overwinter in the top box and on all the days that it is possible to break cluster or at least crawl around some without freezing, they are nearer to the feeding station and do not have to travel far (feed being offered overhead). Also, heat goes up, helping them out with temps. That is why I have followed the pattern that I have, but that does not mean it is necessarily correct for all bees of course. I will add that the school was very intense and limited on time, so the thousands of alternatives were simply not included or maybe mentioned without discussion. I'm just clarifying where my knowledge base came from (and lots of reading as well). It doesn't mean I won't be making future changes!

I guess I'm forced to wait on the outcome this season to make more informed decisions next season...experience means more than anything and that's the one thing I don't have....yet

On swarming, I don't really understand the panic of bees that swarm. Obviously we don't want our bees to swarm and there are many problems that can arise from swarming situations, but it IS natural behavior for bees (and a headache for the beekeeper). Another thing we were taught in the school/club meetings "your main goal is to maintain your colony in such a way to prevent swarming under any circumstance...it is the beekeeper's priority". And while I will do what I can to stop swarming this Spring, if they swarm that's ok. I'll try to retrieve the half that leaves (or hope someone else finds them) and I'll continue on with my new, fresher colony that stayed. Actually, seems like when the bees swarm, they take half the mites away as well...something like a natural split! Opinions????? (this was what I meant to post as a new topic)

[psfred]

Bees swarm for the same reason that teenagers get pregnant -- reproduction. Bees are colonial creatures and the colony is the organism, not the individual bees, so swarming is how more "individuals" are produced.

Obviously beekeepers want to control how many colonies they have and get the bees to make either lots more colonies or lots more honey with a fixed number of colonies (depending on whether you are selling bees or honey!) and uncontrolled swarming is not a good idea. Hives that swarm tend to produce much less honey than hives that don't since there are far fewer bees to store it. An uncontrolled swarm is also a lost colony, figure $100 down the drain if you are selling nucs.

I'm trying Walt Wright's nectar management to prevent swarms, you could also try the method of having two deeps under a queen excluder with an upper entrance (Joseph Clemens? method), both of which seem to greatly reduce swarming. Doing "cut down" splits works pretty well, too (take the queen and some brood and make a nuc with them, let the old hive raise a new queen) works well too if you do it before the bees have twenty swarm cells going. Catching swarms after they leave the hive is the least efficient method, I think.

I've never heard of wanting an empty deep under the cluster before, but I'm not an expert. Typically, around here we want a full deep on top (or at least a medium) since winters can be quite cold and long -- at least once in my lifetime we have had eight weeks of snow on the ground. That's not typical, but not unheard of either.

Peter