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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,309

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Nice stuff here, I hope it goes well. Many beekeepers like to put in the cells closer to the hatch day. Many wait until the morning the cells hatch before planting them in nucs. Many others plant them the day before they hatch. But if this worked for you, no need to change.

    Don't push it too far. I'm not entirely sure the dates on that link work perfectly. If You graft on the first of the month you need to assume the cells will start hatching sometime on the 12. Weather, temps and humidity, will affect hatch times, hot=faster, cold=slower.
    We put in both 10 day cells and 11 day cells this past year and didn't really notice a difference in acceptance. It seems like you can get by with an 11 day cell just fine if you keep the incubation around the 90 to 91 degree range as long as you get them in by mid day. all things being equal, though, I feel a bit better using a 10 day cell and not having to worry about seeing virgins popping in your cell holders.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Thanks Jim, that's what I'm trying to say. I think this calendar that is linked suggests you plant them on day 8. Too early for anyone I've talked with. If it works, fine. The OP Planted the cells on 8/31 and the cells will hatch 9/3. Although I suspect they will hatch late on 9/2. check out the link, see what you think

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Also, Africanized = faster. Those AHB queenies are out to terrorize on day 13 to 15 from egg-lay, day 10 -12 from graft, if anyone is evil enough top graft those things.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,309

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Ryan: the. calender linked is suggesting that a graft on the first should be planted on the 10th which would make it 9 days old. We prefer the 11th since by the afternoon of the 12th you and I both know they will be popping like crazy. My other quibble I have is that they are talking about grafting 1 day old larva, isnt ideal grafting larvae just a few hours old?
    Kc: I think you are no doubt on the mark with the quicker hatch times of ahb. I think that is an inherent advantage they have that has allowed their spread, and it also allows them to resist varroa better

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Yes something is off. Trouble is they say that cell doesn't hatch until the 13th....day 12 since the graft. If you don't think it's hatching until the 13th, why would you put it on in on the 10th. Just like the OP just planted cells on 8/31 that won't hatch until 9/3. Figured that way, they went in as 8 day cells. Fine if it works for him, but thats 2 days younger than what you or I put in.

    12-24 hour larva is fine, I don't think there is any advantage to going under that age.

    Give the queen a frame Monday afternoon. Graft that frame friday morning. They will hatch the next Tuesday. The link to the calendar says that you should be able to graft on Thursday. It doesn't work. Maybe at 10 or 11 pm you could graft a few larva just an hour old. Holy cow that doesn't work at all. They are trying to graft about 20 hours early. If you try this schedule you'll probably have nothing but a frame of eggs to look at when you go to graft.

    This calendar is very cool. But it seems off. If it works for those who have tried it, Great. If anyone is having trouble making this thing work for them, I'm not surprised. I'm sure it's by the book, but something is slightly off.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,309

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Actually we usually use a 5 day frame rotation seems like it takes a day for the bees to get them ready to lay in, always seems like its hard to find a nice clean dark comb that isn't filled with pollen or nectar. As far as larva age, im trying to point out that it is a variable in cell hatching if there is as much as a 24 hour age difference. I have always assumed with grafting larva the younger the better.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    ...12-24 hour larva is fine, I don't think there is any advantage to going under that age.

    ... you could graft a few larva just an hour old. Holy cow that doesn't work at all. They are trying to graft about 20 hours early. If you try this schedule you'll probably have nothing but a frame of eggs to look at when you go to graft.

    This calendar is very cool. But it seems off. If it works for those who have tried it, Great. If anyone is having trouble making this thing work for them, I'm not surprised....
    Ryan - you are observing first hand and that is how you get it. Everyone has different bees and different conditions and you need to tweak your calendar to your bees and conditions.

    Breeders have been grafting since Doolittle did it, and have tried all ages up to 4th day larvae. My best results happen between 80 and 84 hours after egg-lay, and with plenty of royal jelly in the hole, but good queens do often result from larvae up to at least 12 hours older than that, perhaps as much as 40 hours after the chorion (egg shell) dissolves.

    Sometime along the process, the nurse bees start feeding them worker jelly, not royal jelly. That is what I try to avoid, as fewer ovarioles tend to develop, earlier supercedure tends to occur, lower % mating tends to occur. Nothing cast in stone, here, but I like them 6 to 10 hours after metamorphosis to larva with a bit of royal jelly in the hole. A dry larva has little chance of making it. Your bees and methods will likely vary, but should vary only a small amount within consistent conditions and methods.

    I like how you are thinking "inside the hexagon".
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 09-03-2012 at 08:35 PM.

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