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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    oswego, ny, usa
    Posts
    23

    Default Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    So I tried the cloake board for the first time. Grafted my very first 12 cells and had only 3 accepted. OK for the first time I guess. Once capped I removed the board and made the hive queenrite again. I also put cell protectors on them, thinking it would help especially if the hive knew they had a queen again. I waited until today, which was one day before the new queens should have emerged. My plan was to put each cell into a new nuc and allow the queen to emerge, mate and begin laying, then requeen with her. When I went out today all of the cells were gone completely, even through the cell protectors! What happened?? Part of me thinks I should have not put the protectors on and maybe that is what made them tear down the cells. Although I thought the protectors would "protect" the cells. Another part of me says I needed to move those cells to a nuc when they were capped and not let them "ripen" in that hive....any knowledge you folks can pass along would be great.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,250

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Was the queen confined beneath an excluder in the lower box below the cells?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    oswego, ny, usa
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Was the queen confined beneath an excluder in the lower box below the cells?
    Absolutely, 100% positive, saw her myself.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,250

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    I guess before I proceeded any farther I would smoke all the bees from the upper box down through the excluder and see if there is a virgin in there along with your drones. That works really well...dont ask me how I know . If you find one use her as you see fit (perhaps just let the bees filter back up make sure there is some brood and honey and you have got yourself a nice split ), if not try, try again. I really think the cell protectors are unnecessary in this scenario but they shouldn't hurt either.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    908

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    This late in the year, you could also just make the cell builder queenless for the full 10 days to QC cut-out-and-plant-in-the-nuc time, but Jim is probably right. My guess is you have a queen up there somehow.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Nicosia, Cyprus
    Posts
    95

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Or coumaphos contamination.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,250

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Ryan: the. calender linked is suggesting that a graft on the first should be planted on the 10th which would make it 9 days old. We prefer the 11th since by the afternoon of the 12th you and I both know they will be popping like crazy. My other quibble I have is that they are talking about grafting 1 day old larva, isnt ideal grafting larvae just a few hours old?
    Kc: I think you are no doubt on the mark with the quicker hatch times of ahb. I think that is an inherent advantage they have that has allowed their spread, and it also allows them to resist varroa better

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Yes something is off. Trouble is they say that cell doesn't hatch until the 13th....day 12 since the graft. If you don't think it's hatching until the 13th, why would you put it on in on the 10th. Just like the OP just planted cells on 8/31 that won't hatch until 9/3. Figured that way, they went in as 8 day cells. Fine if it works for him, but thats 2 days younger than what you or I put in.

    12-24 hour larva is fine, I don't think there is any advantage to going under that age.

    Give the queen a frame Monday afternoon. Graft that frame friday morning. They will hatch the next Tuesday. The link to the calendar says that you should be able to graft on Thursday. It doesn't work. Maybe at 10 or 11 pm you could graft a few larva just an hour old. Holy cow that doesn't work at all. They are trying to graft about 20 hours early. If you try this schedule you'll probably have nothing but a frame of eggs to look at when you go to graft.

    This calendar is very cool. But it seems off. If it works for those who have tried it, Great. If anyone is having trouble making this thing work for them, I'm not surprised. I'm sure it's by the book, but something is slightly off.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    908

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    ...12-24 hour larva is fine, I don't think there is any advantage to going under that age.

    ... you could graft a few larva just an hour old. Holy cow that doesn't work at all. They are trying to graft about 20 hours early. If you try this schedule you'll probably have nothing but a frame of eggs to look at when you go to graft.

    This calendar is very cool. But it seems off. If it works for those who have tried it, Great. If anyone is having trouble making this thing work for them, I'm not surprised....
    Ryan - you are observing first hand and that is how you get it. Everyone has different bees and different conditions and you need to tweak your calendar to your bees and conditions.

    Breeders have been grafting since Doolittle did it, and have tried all ages up to 4th day larvae. My best results happen between 80 and 84 hours after egg-lay, and with plenty of royal jelly in the hole, but good queens do often result from larvae up to at least 12 hours older than that, perhaps as much as 40 hours after the chorion (egg shell) dissolves.

    Sometime along the process, the nurse bees start feeding them worker jelly, not royal jelly. That is what I try to avoid, as fewer ovarioles tend to develop, earlier supercedure tends to occur, lower % mating tends to occur. Nothing cast in stone, here, but I like them 6 to 10 hours after metamorphosis to larva with a bit of royal jelly in the hole. A dry larva has little chance of making it. Your bees and methods will likely vary, but should vary only a small amount within consistent conditions and methods.

    I like how you are thinking "inside the hexagon".
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 09-03-2012 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,250

    Default Re: Cloake board question....all cells tore down

    Actually we usually use a 5 day frame rotation seems like it takes a day for the bees to get them ready to lay in, always seems like its hard to find a nice clean dark comb that isn't filled with pollen or nectar. As far as larva age, im trying to point out that it is a variable in cell hatching if there is as much as a 24 hour age difference. I have always assumed with grafting larva the younger the better.

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