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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,640

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by julysun View Post
    http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...p-pollination/

    This article in BeeSource by the USDA Claims one way to protect bees from pesticides is entrance and top screening.
    no, it says that bees can be confined...it says nothing about entrance and top screening except when they talk about moving colonies.

    It cautions that ventilation and temperature are hazards that must be tended to. Elsewhere it mentions wet burlap bag covers may be useful in that regard.
    ...I think you need to read a bit more closely. The warnings about ventilation and temperature are under the heading of "moving colonies"...the subheading is "confining the bees", but this passage is clearly about confining the bees in order to move them, not about confining them in the field.

    The sum total of the advice offered for confining bees without moving them in this document is as follows:
    If beekeepers are notified a couple of days prior to the time of application of a pesticide, they may be able to protect their colonies by moving them away temporarily or by confining the bees in the hive.
    ...no specifics, and I didn't see a reference to burlap anywhere in the document...wet or otherwise.

    deknow

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,707

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    We are "fiddling while Rome burns". Move the bees NOW!!!!. Talk to the neighbor later. Enough "scratchin' and spittin'"

    Crazy Roland

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,640

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TIMER View Post
    It is now on me to find out what can be safely used.
    This is a permanent yard so moving the bees out would not be an easy fix, especially with a 30 day residual.
    I know neighbor stuff can be difficult...but making this your problem doesn't make it your problem. It is up to the neighbor not to use pesticides illegally (and there are real consequences...this isn't a minor technicality.

    deknow

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Merced, California, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Sevin can hit again and again if bees store pollen and use later in the year. Run Forrest Run. Deal with neighbors later.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Reading, Michigan
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Ok, I've gotten the extension office involved and their working on a solution.
    The problem here is compounded by the primitive nature of the Amish.
    No way to communicate other than a visit in person which is no problem for me but will be problematic for the extension office people. My last talk with the Amishmen left me feeling like I need to be around 24-7 or they might just spray without me knowing.
    He is off label with his use, barely understands how to mix properly.
    More is better right, or so he thinks. My hope now rests with the extension office.
    Maybe they can make things more understandable for him.
    There's not enough sheep dogs and the wolves are coming!!!!!!

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,640

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    ...since there are 50 hives at risk here (even at $200/hive that is $10k), and since you are not confident that things will be solved properly, I'd take some extra precautions. I'd setup a survelance camera (on your own property) that will catch the spraying if it occurs. Since the extension office is already involved, you may have some recourse if your bees die and you can document that spraying occured after they were alerted to the situation...perhpas from the USDA, perhaps from the neighbor.

    No one wants to have a fight or a lawsuit with a neighbor....but what would it cost you to replace the bees and any contaminated combs? This is not chump change (and if you are breeding your own, this is your valuable stock). I'm sure this is not the first time the extension office has dealt with Amish farmers on such an issue, they should know how to procede..but you've got to document things. I'd also call back the Bayer rep you talked to and ask why they didn't point out that this was far off label use.

    No matter how "primitive", anyone who owns a farm understands a $10k judgement for damages.

    Best of luck...not a good situation to be in, but unavoidable.

    deknow

  7. #47
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,872

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Squash bugs are sucking insects too, not chewing. They can transmit viruses as well which is why people control them as well as the fruit being scarred where they feed on it when small or if babies are aggregating and feeding in the same area. The active ingredient is very stable and persists a long time so it's probably the worst thing to be spraying around bees. I would think you could try open feeding for a few days to get most of your foragers to not go to the pumpkins except ones looking for pollen will go to them.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Ohio
    Posts
    851

    Wink Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Wow sevin!! most bees don't make it off the plant let alone back to the hive.

    If you could only pick your neighbor!

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Reading, Michigan
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...since there are 50 hives at risk here (even at $200/hive that is $10k)

    deknow
    Well since there are from 2-6 nearly full supers on most of these hives I quoted $30 to $35k for complete replacement and that doesn't account for my mating nucs or breeder queens
    I think that may have gotten his attention.
    The extension service expert is willing to make the 2 hour drive in order to try and enlighten the Amish.
    They seem very willing to try to bridge the gap here.
    He wants to recommend Assail for squash bug control, they claim if sprayed late evening and dried overnight it won't harm the bees.
    Anyone have experience with this product?
    I will try to find more info online. Thanks for all the responses Beesource folks
    There's not enough sheep dogs and the wolves are coming!!!!!!

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Clifford Township, PA
    Posts
    2,025

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TIMER View Post
    He wants to recommend Assail for squash bug control, they claim if sprayed late evening and dried overnight it won't harm the bees.
    Anyone have experience with this product?
    No experience, I am an organic gardener and previously organic farmer. However the MSDS for Assail states the following:

    ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
    This product is toxic to wildlife. This product is toxic
    to bees exposed to direct treatment. Do not apply this
    product while bees are actively visiting the treated area.
    Again, not having any experience with this particular poison, I would at least heed the warning and confine the bees for the day that the farmer is spraying.

    Wayne

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Bon Aqua, Tn USA
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    I have been reading this post and others like it and it seems that so far there is no evidence that the neighbor is not acting lawfully. Some seem to imply that just because one has bees that all their neighbors have to stop what they are doing and yield to the bees. Sound like a segment of society that knows what best for everybody else and that is to do it their way. My property is my property and I don't ask permission from my neighbors what I can lawfully grow or do to it. If I raised a herd of cows and you had good growing grass could I let them out to eat your grass and bushes? No, some would be crying get the gun and shoot them all. But when it comes to some peoples bees they see it differently. I am sure some will get upset, but that's life.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,640

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Err, the neighbor IS breaking the law. One cannot violate the label instructions on pesticides and still be using it legally. This pesticide has a label that does not allow it to be used where bees are actively foraging. This is being applied to open blooms (irresponsible and illegal...and deadly to bees and other pollinators ). There is no grey area here in this case.....the neighbor is clearly violating the law. You do not have the right to use regulated pesticides contrary to the label instructions.....period.

    Deknow

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Deknow is correct. This is direct violation of the law.
    Frequently the law is broken when people apply pesticide because they don't follow the label. But when that application has a direct impact on another person's property the Law is there to protect them.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Reading, Michigan
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nantom670 View Post
    I have been reading this post and others like it and it seems that so far there is no evidence that the neighbor is not acting lawfully. Some seem to imply that just because one has bees that all their neighbors have to stop what they are doing and yield to the bees. Sound like a segment of society that knows what best for everybody else and that is to do it their way. My property is my property and I don't ask permission from my neighbors what I can lawfully grow or do to it. If I raised a herd of cows and you had good growing grass could I let them out to eat your grass and bushes? No, some would be crying get the gun and shoot them all. But when it comes to some peoples bees they see it differently. I am sure some will get upset, but that's life.
    Well I'll tell you right off, I am a strong supporter of private property rights. However, if you knowingly do somthing that causes physical or financial damage to others you should expect some consequenses legal or otherwise. Your analogy is also flawed, with no pollenation there would be no pumpkins, if your cattle came to eat my grass and left t-bone steaks and milk I surely would not want to shoot them.

    I've done some more resaerch on Assail, it is a neonic-systemic pesticide. The UPI company sells it with a slightly different label than what the label from DuPont is. I'm not sure why.
    Does'nt seem like this is the answer we are looking for.
    There's not enough sheep dogs and the wolves are coming!!!!!!

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    966

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    While not an immediate, short term solution, perhaps this would avoid a repeat of the issue next year:

    A quick search for a source found many, here is one: praying mantis

  16. #56

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    oh hippies. stop presuming that everything is as simple as the most expensive solution. Sevin is dirt cheap.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,640

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    ...dirt cheap is what consumers and wholesalers pay forpumpkins that haven't been adequately pollinated.

    Deknow

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    States I have had bees in require 24-48 hours notice before they spray a crop with something that harms bees. Legal issues, applicator licenses, alternate chemicals, and the methods of spraying can all be argued. You could force them to jump through the hoops, but at the end of the day the crop will get sprayed. Once you know about it, it's your problem. Move them out and then move them back. It is definitly the down side of owning bees. Working with them is best and can benefit both sides.

    I would HIGHLY consider moving them no matter what chemical is used. Don't count on the ag extension office to come up with a safe solution. Many tests are done on adult bees, no regard for young bees, brood, or queens. Sub-leathal exposure can cause you to pour time and money into underperforming hives for months. The expensive part is the time, feeds, meds, and shipping paid out for hives that get sick and take 3,4,5 months to die.

    Move them if their health is vital to you. I'm in a very heavily farmed area in the summer and there is no safe place to go. So I never move them. Several years ago, I told the guy who runs the spray airplane to stop calling me to give notice, "just go spray". I lose some bees, but I don't lose sleep worrying about what I can't control. You might leave a few hives and see which is more expensive, moving bees or replacing a few hives. You never know what will happen.

    Good luck
    ryan

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    1,699

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    a solution..."matador", but must check if it kills squash bugs
    Matador (could be an sp) is toxic until it dries, leaves no residue, and is best sprayed at either late in the evening or early am. I am assuming he is using Sevin because it lasts on the plant for a few days catching the hatched ones later on...much like cygone.
    Best of luck

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,984

    Default Re: 10 acres of Pumpkins in full bloom, Amish soaking them with Sevin!?!?!!!!!

    Yes, I agree with honeyshack

    if they spray with Matador in the evening, little harm will be done by the next morning.
    I have lots of experience with this in sunflowers

    You can not really tell him not to spray. all your going to do is piss him off and the next time he will kill your bees all the same. the best thing to do is help him choose different sprays and work around his pest control program. might mean moving your yards or closing them up for a while.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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