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  1. #121
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    Lee\'s Summit, MO
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Err, sure, under the new health care legislation, you can pay a tax to the government if you don't want to buy insurance from a big corporation.

    deknow
    Yes, but who instigated it? Big Government. You still don't have to do business with a Big corporation. Big govt will be there to get your money then.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  2. #122
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,113

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Watch it, political comments are liable to be deleted or end up in Tailgater.

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I think, you need to address this question to Solomon Parker - he is on treatment-free forum. If I understood correctly, he considered even essential oils and purposely planted plants as a treatment. He stated that his apiary is treatment-free for 8-9 years, but you better communicate with him directly. I personally do not label the queens, thus, it is not possible to tell how long hive has the same queen. I have no intentions to label queens in the future. Sergey
    Not quite correctly. I consider essential oils a treatments, but not plants. However, I do not do anything to help the bees deal with pests, that includes plants, screen bottom boards, sticky boards, brood breaks, systematic splitting, and drone come removal.

    I have been keeping bees for nine years, four months, 21 days, approximately. I started with 20 three-pound packages and I currently have 28. Most of my current hives are descended from one hive which has survived this entire time with no treatment whatsoever. During that course of time, I have added approximately ten outside queens, five of which are still with me, and one of those has been mother to half a dozen or so others.

    I wish I had gotten in on this conversation earlier, but to answer the OP, I have had a hive crawling with mites, dozens of living mites readily visible, with expectation of the collapse of the hive. However, that hive is still with me today. It's not a great performer, but it's still alive. I say you don't know what they can do until you let them try. The ultimate solution for honeybee diseases is for all of them to be treatment free. That's the only way to have a sustainable kept honeybee population without expensive and ineffective treatments.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    9,759

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Acebird,
    Theconomics isn't there for what you dream of.
    If I try to answer I will get blamed for taking the topic off topic. My comment is that we disagree on this.
    The pesticides that are used on bee colonies are poisons. If you agree with Seregy's point of view that these chemicals are bad for bees in the long run, (I do agree) you might also agree that these chemicals used on human food are also bad for humans in the long run (not everybody does, I do). If you are a believer you see the economics but it is another hot topic that has been discussed before.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #124
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    3,191

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    EARN - really?!!!!!! may be "steal" the better word? Sergey
    Now that sounds like a bitter statment.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  5. #125
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,596

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    If I try to answer I will get blamed for taking the topic off topic. My comment is that we disagree on this.
    The pesticides that are used on bee colonies are poisons. If you agree with Seregy's point of view that these chemicals are bad for bees in the long run, (I do agree) you might also agree that these chemicals used on human food are also bad for humans in the long run (not everybody does, I do). If you are a believer you see the economics but it is another hot topic that has been discussed before.
    Amazingly almost all of the food you eat has been brought to you thru the miricles of modern science, mainly chemistry, and you and everyone else survives and thrives, w/out detrimental side effects, far more than not.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  6. #126
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    ... I would love to be treatment free, but I am not. ..
    Mark, I feel that this discussion actually is going in good direction. I am very glad to hear that commercial beekeepers are aware of the problem and are willing to work in the direction of reducing the usage of chemicals. If it is true, it is just great! Still, promises needs to be fulfilled, but it is a good beginning. Unfortunately, my area of expertise is away from bees, so I could not provide practical help, but hopefully others could. Sergey

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    .. if you don't want to do business with big corporations you don't have to. Therefor they "earn" no money from you.
    Not true - I could not change my gas or electric company. During EMRON (spell?) crisis, our Edison increases prices for the electricity and magically "forgot" return them back when crisis was over... Later it was established that the whole EMRON crisis was artificial and affected a million of customers but nobody was compensated. The same - my insurance company and if you do not know, but at university, we may order stuff only from particular companies. Talking about "good" intentions in large corporations is a pure propaganda to me. Sergey
    Last edited by cerezha; 08-16-2012 at 08:27 PM. Reason: ESL

  8. #128
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    When we commercial beekeepers are able to keep bees w/out mite treatments we will. Just as we did before 1984. Yes, Dean, some will still use fumidil and Tylosin or TM, but I haven't and don't think I will. Diseases I address w/ fire and young queens in strong colonies.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Now that sounds like a bitter statment.
    Keith,
    Russian says that truth is sour, but may be in English it is bitter?

  10. #130
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    Oct 2011
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Amazingly almost all of the food you eat has been brought to you thru the miricles of modern science, mainly chemistry, and you and everyone else survives and thrives, w/out detrimental side effects, far more than not.
    O-oooo I got you Mark! This IS area of my expertise! Not true entirely! We have substantial increase in the cancer (and allergy), which is clearly associated with pollution of any kind including but not limited to pesticides and hormones in food chain, air pollution, electromagnetic field pollution and many others! The problem with pollutants (any) is that they are working at very low concentrations/doses for long period of time (decades). Also, if you are living in US, please, do not think that you are protected from pollutants - you ARE NOT! Most of EPA, FDA you name it ... agency's standards are way above (permits the higher amount of bad stuff) standards in Europe or Japan. Why? Partially, because of lobbying by big corporations. Particularly, I was involved in investigation of the black carbon pollution from truck's diesels. Apparently - black carbon standard in US is used to be 10 times higher (more pollution permitted) than in Europe because of lobbying by coal industry. Also, other, even more dangerous products of diesel fuel decomposition are not regulated at all! As a result, the mortality from cancer in the Central Valley (CA) is 30% higher in the areas with main trucks paths. On the map it looks scary - around each road with trucks - there is a halo of cancer deaths. This study was performed by UCLA and available.

    Mark, when your trucks are moving bees, they literally spread the cancer around! It is not a joke! It is deadly serious - trucks pollution is practically unregulated in US.

    I wish everybody healthy life away from chemicals. Sergey

    By the way, as a biochemist (my official title, I have many), I could tell you - there is no good (for your life) chemical - all of them bad for animal/insectl/human just in different way. Unfortunately, sometime we need to use them, but once it is a system or overdose, it is always turned bad sooner or later. Using chemicals on wild animals like bees is even more dangerous since we do not know well how wild organism will respond on chemical. In Los Angeles, during 60-es (I was not here) nearly 95% of natural ecosystem was destroyed by pollution. It is not recovered yet. What we have - non-native more aggressive species filling up the gap, africanized bees for instance.
    Last edited by cerezha; 08-16-2012 at 08:36 PM. Reason: ESL

  11. #131
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Keith,
    Russian says that truth is sour,
    Well, maybe you should go where the truth is sour.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  12. #132
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,653

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Hey Glock,

    Why not just do a few sugar dustings, and leave them be....
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  13. #133
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,451

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Mark, when your trucks are moving bees, they literally spread the cancer around! It is not a joke! It is deadly serious - trucks pollution is practically unregulated in US.
    So what is all this talk about new clean burning deisels that just emit water vapor and whats the purpose of all this DEF fluid that I have to keep buying?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #134
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Amazingly almost all of the food you eat has been brought to you thru the miricles of modern science, mainly chemistry, and you and everyone else survives and thrives, w/out detrimental side effects, far more than not.
    ...there pretty much isn't a disease that humans get that isn't exacerbated by being overweight. Do you think that our modern food system has nothing to do with obesity, heart disease, diabetes? Do you think we are healthier with cheap refined sugars being made so readily available? Would we be a healthier society if we didn't have soda?

    deknow

  15. #135
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Come on down to Texas next spring and spend a few days splitting with us, it will give you a whole different perspective.
    If that's a serious offer, you might get a 2 for 1...Ramona won't let me have all the fun

    deknow

  16. #136
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    So what is all this talk about new clean burning deisels that just emit water vapor and whats the purpose of all this DEF fluid that I have to keep buying?
    DEF reduces nitrogen oxides, poisonous stuff. Initially was established in Europe, I am pleased to see that it is in US also. It does not affect other stuff from diesel. As far as I know, diesel emits black carbon, which considered to be a carcinogen by World Health organization, Europe and Japan but US (potential carcinogen in US). Diesel emits also "organic" byproducts of incomplete fuel burning - many of them known to be a mutagenes, but not regulated in US. Diesel also emits a new "enemy" - nanoparticles (recent addition), which potentially may be toxic. Nanoparticles are under close watch from EPA - as far as I know, for some reason, they wanted them to be regulated... not yet.

    I am impressed with DEF - Jim, is it mandatory to use? Sergey

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...Ramona won't let me have all the fun
    Deknow, are you from Ramona, SoCal? I have "uncle Charlie" in Ramona, he has chickens and his daughter owns "Ramona Cafe". Sergey

  18. #138
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...there pretty much isn't a disease that humans get that isn't exacerbated by being overweight. Do you think that our modern food system has nothing to do with obesity, heart disease, diabetes? Do you think we are healthier with cheap refined sugars being made so readily available? Would we be a healthier society if we didn't have soda?

    deknow
    Good points. How come, on average we live longer?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Good points. How come, on average we live longer?
    Certainly folks live longer...in part because of advanced medicine, in part because of better overall nutrition.....but a lot of it has to do with the reduction in infant mortality (infant mortality effects such averages severely.....it's like getting a zero on a school assignment).

    Deknow

  20. #140

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    This whole thread has gotten so far off track that I am moving on.
    To the original poster good luck with whatever choice you make.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

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