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  1. #81
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I am sorry Mark - sounded like soviet-time propaganda. I did not see any scientific papers published by commercial beekeepers or papers stated that they had money for research from commercial beekeepers. Legislation - beneficial to industry, not consumers. "Preserving" the species - are you serious? Bees nearly disappeared under commercial practices. Pollination - moving bees 1000 miles - what is good in this? Spreading diseases and other problems? I would imagine that you and others have a good intentions, but I, as a customer, just do not see it. But - it is my problem if I do not see something.
    That's okay. I don't know that you actually wrote this outright, but you seem to blame the commercial beekeepers for almost wiping out honeybees in North America. Is that your opinion?

    This never happened. The idea that honeybees were in peril is fiction. There has never been a shortage of honeybees. I know no one inj need of pollination who hasn't gotten bees. I know no one who has ever wanted to buy bees who couldn't get them because of shortages or extinction.

    On the other hand, were it not for commercial beekeepers queens for selling and beehives for pollination would not be readily available when needed. Moving bees thousands of miles, or simply hundreds of miles, keeps fresh, well developed fruits and vegetable in produce aisles of grocery stores across the Nation. That's what good such work does.

    You as what kind of customer? You don't buy bees from commercial beekeepers, so that can't be it. Do you mean as a consumer of foods grown from pollinated crops?

    As far as diseases and pests are concerned, if no commercial migratory beekeepers existed those pests and diseases would still exist and get around. No commercial beekeeper brought varroa jacobsinii to North America.

    Sergey, you may not know about The American Beekeeping Federation and the American Honey Producers Association. Google them and see what they are about. Those two associations, primarily but not exclusively commercial beekeepers, support grad students and research done on bees and problems that honeybees have.

    They hold annual conferences with huge agendas covering many aspects of beekeeping w/ speakers and presenters not found at your State Level Association Meetings. A huge list of speakers, people from all walks of beekeeping life. From beekeepers to international researchers and everything you can think of in between.

    "Preserving the species'? Yes, we make new colonies and queens every year to replace those lost and to sell to others. Our goal is to see bees and beekeeping survive and thrive on into the future.

    You are a Scientist. You want documentation and impirical studys. You really should go to
    Bee-L, bee-L.com. Sure, there are folks who could sight studys and papers for you. That's not me. I'm a hands on guy, not a computer wiz or the reader of Papers. I subscribe to American Bee Journal, mostly for the pictures. (a little American humor) There are very few scientific papers I have read in ABJ. My mind goes numb. I'm sure you can understand.

    We have exchanged PMs. I have no problem w/ you. You bring up interesting things to think about.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
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    1,212

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    guess i'm damed if i do and damed if i don't. But like i said i have 17 hives so if i get some throught winter i'll bee happy then i can make splits and queens and don't have to deal with trying to buy nucs. As far as the money and honey if i get honey for me them i'm happy i have bee's as a hobby and don't care about making money. I'll let every one know how winter go's last year i had only 3 hives and they made it throght winter ok . One thing i have learned since i joined beesorce is beekeepers get p.off easy but i've learned alot here thank you.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,613

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Please don't read anything I have written as if it were written in anger. It was not. I just happen to have a different perspective and mental bent on things near and dear to me than some others who hold things near and dear to themselves too. Don't confuse passion w/ anger.

    It's all good.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,310

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    guess i'm damed if i do and damed if i don't. But like i said i have 17 hives so if i get some throught winter i'll bee happy then i can make splits and queens and don't have to deal with trying to buy nucs. One thing i have learned since i joined beesorce is beekeepers get p.off easy but i've learned alot here thank you.
    If you have really high mite loads, late summer right after you have taken your honey crop off and the queens are still laying is the perfect time to treat with something like hopguard or a formic or thymol product. There is virtually no danger of honey contamination. You will kill lots, and lots of mites and no one will ever convince me that such a treatment is a bad thing. I really dont see a downside to that. Its the one treatment that I just cant forego because it is the time that mite loads are the highest. Get your numbers low in the fall, use the resulting strong hives in the spring to make a bunch of splits and you are on your way to success. Its where I part ways with my friends in the treatment free crowd. If you don't have a problem, well then thats the best situation of all. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
    People getting upset on Beesource? The way this thread has been sounding lately I think we are ready for a big ole group hug.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,166

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    One thing i have learned since i joined beesorce is beekeepers get p.off easy.
    That's ok Glock, I'll save some room for you under the bus.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,613

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Is it warm under there Keith? Is that why you are hiding there? Or maybe it's cool?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,652

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Many posts back, some one asked:

    I am still waiting for someone out there with more than 10 hives that has been treatment free for more than 3 years with the same queens to chime in with their experience.

    We have one yard(of around 20) that has been genetically isolated from the rest, for five years. We do not use any chemical miticides. It currently us at full strength, 20 hives(what we feel the location can support). What would you like to know about them?

    If commercial beekeepers are so bad for bees, why do most people buy their bees from them? When the commercial people are buying from the hobbiest, I will drink the coolaid.

    If commercial beekeepers are so short sighted, why are WE still in business after 160 years?

    When you get CCD(the REAL thing), you will realize these mites are a "walk in the Park". Get you mite solutions straightened out, because there is something much worse on the way.

    Was the passing of the toughest honey definition laws in Wisconsin, at the instigation of the BEEKEEPERS, not beneficial to the consumer?

    Crazy Roland

  8. #88
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,572

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    If commercial beekeepers are so bad for bees, why do most people buy their bees from them?
    errrr, this is a simple math problem. 1% of the beekeepers (the migratory commercial beeks) have 99% of the bees (these figures are rounded, but not much).
    Of the rest of the 99% of beekeepers, they have 1% of the bees.
    So, is it surprising that a group with 99% sells to the group with 1%?
    Why do commercial beekeepers tend to sell nucs? ...because they are taking their own advice and rotating out their old comb!

    deknow

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Westchester NY
    Posts
    238

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Thanks Roland! Finally someone has taken up my challenge of more than 10 hives for more than 3 years treatment free.

    Here are some questions for you

    You said the yard has 20 hives in it currently. Approximatly how many die off each year, and when they do are you splitting the ones left to get the numbers back up and keep them isolated?

    What race of bees are they/are they mutts?

    Do you mark/keep track of queens for longevity?

    What kind of treatments do you do if any that are non chemical ie drone trapping sugar dusting (if that is non chemical...) Breaking up the brood cycle or maybe nothing?

    Are there any other apiarys nearby to cross mate with?

    Thanks for any insight you have--treatment free in scale is much harder in practice than a lot of people think.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...because they are taking their own advice and rotating out their old comb!

    deknow
    I find that a cynical reply. As if I intentionally amgetting rid of something bad or not good for my customers. I help a large nuc provider make nucs from his hives. Never have I been told to be sure to use the old combs.

    I sell nucs for the income.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #91

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Most larger beekeepers sell nucs (do splits) as part of their swarm management and sell those nucs as a good business practice. I too sell nucs. My nucs have frames that are less than or at most two years old. My frame cull pile is filled with older frames. Anybody else resent being unjustly painted by such a cynical brush?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,235

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Would you suggest that the fellow farming those thousands of acres abandon the use of pesticides entirely?
    I would prefer the size of the farms to be small or smaller with a lot more people farming them if that is the answer to abandon pesticides. If this works for beekeeping than I am in favor for that also. Mark used the word "passion" their is no passion in a major corporate entity other than chasing dollars. Anything they can get away with that will increase the bottom line is deemed acceptable.

    Big government and big corporations = the same thing. "How can we take in more money." "We don't care about anything else."
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #93
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,572

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    .....hold on a second you two.....I am specifically referring to to 1% of commercial beekeepers with 99% of the bees. I don't know the details of either one of your businesses, but i dont think either one of you is part of that group.
    Supplying quality nucs is good business...but the nucs ive seen from the larger players (the ones that go around looking for local brokers to sell their nucs) are obviosly made from old combs as part of rotating them out of their own operation (these are also heavily treated bees to start with, so comb contamination is a real issue).
    At least one local producer of nucs has stopped because he cant afford to lose so much good comb as part of the process.
    Do you really think that the 1% of beeks with 99% of the bees are selling nucs with good comb?
    I do have a comb sample from a local beek (a resource contributor) that I sraped off the plastic foundation of such a nuc.... the intention was to have it tested, but the matching funds are no longer available, and the $200+ for the testing is better spent elsewhere (at least my $200 is). I ha e the sample im my freezer and will photograph it when I return home next week......mostly cocoons.

    Deknow

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,310

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Most larger beekeepers sell nucs (do splits) as part of their swarm management and sell those nucs as a good business practice. I too sell nucs. My nucs have frames that are less than or at most two years old. My frame cull pile is filled with older frames. Anybody else resent being unjustly painted by such a cynical brush?
    I am not going to attempt to generalize what motivates most nuc sellers but I would tend to think it is driven more by the opportunity to derive income from their excess bees than by a desire to get rid of old comb. I have done enough of it to know that nucing is a pretty intense time with a lot of stuff going on such as cell schedules, bee moving, feeding, controlling robbing and drifting etc. that trying to factor in how to make sure I cull certain combs into certain nucs is pretty secondary. In my case I have more often ended up on the short end of the frame exchange quality issue because it is a bit of a problem to require all new combs in exchange because I don't like to put too many frames of foundation in a split so I prefer a mixture of foundation and drawn comb.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #95

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    In my opinion Dean, you sometimes take a broad sweep in an accusation without considering it carefully. Overt accusations are a serious matter, again in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Why do commercial beekeepers tend to sell nucs? ...because they are taking their own advice and rotating out their old comb!
    Had you included the word ‘some’, I (and likely innocent others) would not feel tainted.
    But you do it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ..I am specifically referring to to 1% of commercial beekeepers with 99% of the bees.
    The word ‘some’ would, again, be appropriate. Now instead of accusing all nuc producers, you’ve only accused ‘all’ of the big ones.
    I bought nucs years ago from one of the ‘big boys’ and had to cull all of the frames the first season. On the other hand, I’ve seen nucs produced by a multithousand hive beekeeper that are probably as current as the ones I sell. And…he doesn’t use any synthetic miticides. I’m sure if he bothered to read this thread, he’d be rightfully offended. And I don't believe he is the only one.
    Everyone is not guilty.
    Last edited by beemandan; 08-16-2012 at 07:48 AM.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  16. #96
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,572

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    I can't do anything to insure that one sentence in a post that is talking about the biggest 1% of beekeepers isn't taken out of context.
    Your experience with the nucs that had to have all the frames culled is exactly what I was referring to.
    The other beekeeper you mention.....I have no idea who it is, or what their practices are. Synthetic miticides were discontinued how many years ago? What about tylosin?
    Are all of his/her nucs. Up to your standards...or just that you saw some that were?
    What do you think a beekeeper (new or seasoned) should ask a nuc supplier? Do you think the broker or supplier always knows how old the combs are, what they were treated with? Do you think one would always get a straight answer?

    Wrt. Jim's comments I would suggest that a BIG operation has both the manpower and organization to preferentially pull old comb for nucs.....not to mention the financial motivation (otherwise "good" combs are used for nucs to be sold to others, and the comb that need to be culled are burned).

    There is a big difference between nucs (or honey) that is produced in order to produce a quality product, and nucs/honey that are a mere byproduct of the business of pollination.

    Best case scenario is the customer has a trusting relationship with the supplier/producer...and that that trust is justified...this is often not the case (again, many nucs are sold by brokers who are not transparant or even informed about where they came from, and what the circumstances are). If you have that kind of relationship with your customer base, nothing I say here will affect your business...nor should it.

    But these issues are not visible to the new beekeeper...and many end up on the short end of the stick...I see it every year, as these are the least expensive and most abundant nucs available.

    deknow
    Last edited by deknow; 08-16-2012 at 08:40 AM. Reason: typing on a cell phone is a pain

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lee\'s Summit, MO
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    1,297

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by xcugat View Post
    Ace be fair to D coates
    Some folks can't help themselves with their love of armchair quarterbacking, posting, and pointing out their hindsite brilliance. It's those type of posts that inhibit the transfer of knowledge because exposing yourself to snarky snipers with an obvious failure is not pleasant.

    The whole reason I told of my failure was your request to know how someone with more than 10 hives faired with no treatements. I tried that route and won't again. I did split the one hive that survived with the idea of possibly rearing queens from her. I found supercedure cells in that hive 2 months later. I found the marked survivor queen and transfered her to a nuc where she lasted a month before she was superceded herself.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  18. #98
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,572

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    ...and pointing out their hindsite brilliance.
    I think you are using the wrong term....they are pointing out what they see in themselves...their "hindside brilliance"....which is often observed from the interior or their own hindside.

    deknow

  19. #99
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    Jan 2006
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    Lee\'s Summit, MO
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    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Dang, I though you missed my sarcasm. Nope, you got it just right.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,590

    Default Re: Treat or not to treat

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    could be that the newbie is the worst offender when it comes to chemical treatments.
    The following poll suggests that the great majority of new beekeepers wish to avoid chemical treatments.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/poll...do=showresults
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

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