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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
    Posts
    651

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Good point TOKERM! As with any free service you need a good ignore button in your head or a research button to figure out how to stop the ones that offend. In doing a search for information you need a good BS detector also or you will become filled with trash information. Do a search on the Federal Reserve some time and try to work out the truth there, as an example. I have brothers as gullible as Gulliver over internet FACTS, makes them hard to talk to!
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Quote Originally Posted by TokerM View Post
    WOAH!!! No way! So, a website that is designed for community support should be able to censor it's users if a "sponsor" doesn't like what they have to say?

    Where then should I go for reviews on companies I want to use? If I run a company that has poor business practices, and people come on here to complain about me, how much money will I need to spend to Beesource to ensure I never have an ill word spoken about me here?
    This site is very censored: Maybe you haven't been around long enough to pile up any infractions yet, but give it time. Try multi-quoting or posting a picture that is about 800x600 and you will get an infraction or two and your post will be censored. (read deleted)

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    heavily moderated is different than heavily censored. I've seen the edits mods do, and that's definitely not what I'm referring to. I haven't looked through every thread to see if there are any negative comments on sponsors, but are you saying that if someone has a problem with a site sponsor, let's say Blue Sky for example, since their ad was the first one I saw when I looked right, and they post in the consumer reports forum, that that thread would be deleted?

    Anyway, I may be new to this site, but I am definitely not new to the whole internet forum operation. I know how to search, edit my posts, and generally follow the guidelines the site administrators set. Having a post deleted because you didn't follow the rules is different than having your post deleted because a mod didn't like what you wrote.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    No all I am saying is that the forum looses revenue because they let anybody make any neg comment about anybody for any reason.

    Let me give you a hypothetical situation of how this is a disservice to you the forum member:

    You have a long time member who donates yearly. This member is also a vendor who offers a product at a discount price to other forum members. Many customers are very happy with the product and the large discount they receive for being a member. But one customer isn't happy about an issue with the product... this is 1 customer out of about 350 people mind you. Instead of calling the vendor (he has his phone number) he jumps into a thread about said vendor and starts ranting (for lack of a better term) about how unhappy he is. Over the course of several days said vendor offers to make the situation right and the customer rejects those offers. So now the vendor has a thread up that administration will not take down and is basically bashing the vendors good reputation. So vendor stops making donations, refuses to pay for the advertising to the site and stops offering the member discount.
    Who is the looser here? The vendor makes more money because he is now making an extra 15.00 on the 100s of items he was offering discounts on. The site lost a paying customer, and the members lost their discount. All over 1 unhappy person who, in the end, didn't really want anything except to be negative publicly on the forum.

    And now you have to see banner ads of half necked women because the forum can't support it's self without them.

    True story.
    Last edited by bluegrass; 08-14-2012 at 05:08 PM.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, but I did deal with the exact same scenario in a forum I belonged to for cars. A "sponsor" was getting negative posts about his company deleted while the company was going down the drain, his cousin was a moderator. Nobody knew that orders weren't getting filled and checks to vendors were bouncing until the month that the site sponsorship dried up and the company folded a few days later. A lot of people lost a lot of money on frame orders. If the threads had not been deleted almost as soon as they were posted, and members banned from the site to avoid further complaints, more people would have seen the red flags, and less money would have been lost. Not going to mention the site, but it went from over 5,000 individuals logging in per day to under 100, I don't even know if they still exist. Can't trust the reviews from them.

    I do see a lot of positive reviews about the sponsors. Under your scenario, if someone did come along and post a negative review as you said, and they refused any attempts to repair the situation and just stayed negative, (even if I never saw the sponsor post in the negative thread,) I like to think I'm smart enough to see that "that have a lot of good reviews, and few bad reviews... Ah well, can't please all the people all the time." They will still get my business. Now... if there is a trend of similar complaints about the same sponsor, well, then I know they are having a problem. Just because someone is a sponsor, does not mean that they can do no wrong.

    Edit: Here's an example of a "somewhat negative" thread on Blue Sky. While there are no complaints about them, this thread sure isn't going to help BS sell any of the feeders. Should mods delete this thread if BS asks?
    Last edited by TokerM; 08-14-2012 at 05:43 PM.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Geauga County, Ohio
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    No all I am saying is that the forum looses revenue because they let anybody make any neg comment about anybody for any reason.
    <snip>
    <snip>
    True story.
    Whoa, we've switched from Google to the guy wearing the hob-nailed boots!! (which "big-brother" is which?)

    I have seen the games played by an advertiser's competition on forums at other venues. And it usually gets way out of hand. Thus there is no easy answer to dealing with negative vendor feedback.

    With bees, you have a live product that is subject to mistreatment in packing, shipping and in the hands of the recipient. When something goes sideways, who is at fault? Could be the vendors' fault. Could be the shippers' fault. Could be the recipient's fault. No way to tell on the internet. All you see in a thread is a recipient making a fuss.

    Sometimes it's pretty obvious that the complainer is trying to extort something for nothing. And sometimes it is not that obvious.

    If you allow any and all comments on the forum, you'll get the occasional cranky poster who endlessly complains about a site advertiser. There is no way to tell if that individual ordered something just to trash someone's reputation on the internet or if the complaint is valid. There is no way to tell if the "cranky one" is a competitor bent on dragging the advertiser's reputation through the manure pile.

    When any vendor is criticized brutally on this forum, other potential advertisers must be looking on and wondering if they should take a chance advertizing here. Yet, if honest reporting of things gone wrong isn't allowed, you'll have "cranky ones" screaming censorship. (I'm glad I don't have to walk that line)

    So, in the end, it's the guy wearing the hob-nailed boots who has to make the call. Does he censor bad comments about advertisers to keep the funds rolling? That sets a possibly unfortunate precedent. Meaning, the way a shifty vendor could "clean-up" their reputation would be to buy advertizing.... On the other hand, letting the chips fall where they may, means potential site advertisers might just decide to give this site a pass.

    Sometimes nothing is easy.


  7. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    I think part or all of my point is being missed.

    Set aside all the vendor feedback/censoring posts for a minute.

    This thread is in protest to Google spying on our activity online and targeting advertising based on the information they collect. It is a protest to our invasion of privacy. Previously this site has been banner ad free which completely eliminates the "Big brother" that we are here protesting. The previous solution was to pay for the costs of operation with donations, than it started to include vendor sponsored paid ads (the ones on the right side of the page) which are not driven by data collection and spying. Then vendors started paying for listings in the general threads....

    All that would be enough if a simple rule was instituted that stated that business dealings were between the Vendor and the Customer. If you have a problem take it up with the Vendor. As a backup plan you could also lodge a private complaint with the site. If admin receives multiple complaints on the same vendor for the same thing they simply kick the vendor off of the site to protect its members and sell that ad space to somebody else.

    Instead we have a "checks and balances vendor review system. It doesn't take long to see that for every complaint a vendor receives dozens of people post positive feedback. But because vendors get tired of dealing with the negative they simply stop paying for the site to operate.
    And we have sold our souls to the devil by having to resort to banner ads which monitor our activity.

    With a simple modification to the forum we could eliminate the big brother and protect our bread and butter. The advertisers who are selling bee stuff instead of hot dates.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,533

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    With a simple modification to the forum we could eliminate the big brother and protect our bread and butter.
    How did you arrive at your solution? Do you have the data to show what vendors will spend and what Adsense pays? I find it humorous when people make statements without knowing the real facts. I'm not interested in restricting consumers ability to share their experiences with businesses.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    How did you arrive at your solution? Do you have the data to show what vendors will spend and what Adsense pays? I find it humorous when people make statements without knowing the real facts. I'm not interested in restricting consumers ability to share their experiences with businesses.
    I have used adsence to fund my own sites so I know what they pay... I also know what I would give to have the direct ad potential you have here with an interest group that is over 35,000 people strong.

    I think I have adequately verbalized my point of view and it is clear by this thread that members are not particularly happy with the banner ads and how they work.

    You have to do what is best for your bottom line... I have to do what is best for what is mine... Paying for advertising just to have my name trashed without recourse isn't best for my bottom line. When I brought the issue up to "admin" I was told it was a checks and balance system... all the while I am receiving PMs from other members who were reading the thread stating that the other party was out of line.

    IMHO the bottom line is that the forum is going to continue to grow, the costs are going to continue to rise, and ad sense isn't going to cover the costs. We don't click on those ads anyway. Then what? Members are not going to pay for membership when there are multiple other bee forums which are free, and free of banner ads. I would have easily been willing to pay a fair rate to advertise here except for your consumer rating policy... I gave it a try this season and it didn't work for me... If it had and you wanted to charge 100.00 to advertise I would have paid it... if the next year it went up to 500.00 I would have paid it. I have paid similar fees to other forums for ad space..
    The potential here is amazing... I think you are missing out really.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,471

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    I really don't mind the targeted banner ads, for me its trucks, outdoor equipment and apparently I should be enrolling in the University of South Dakota......again. I will admit to being kind of disappointed to find out that those hot babes were hitting on almost everyone else on the site as well, I was sure that they were talking directly to me.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Geauga County, Ohio
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    <snip> I will admit to being kind of disappointed to find out that those hot babes were hitting on almost everyone else on the site as well, I was sure that they were talking directly to me.
    Actually those "hot babes" work in the department of negotiable affections. And they weren't really interested in talking to you or me. They only want to talk to our wallets.


  12. #52

    Default Re: Big brother is watching

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    They only want to talk to our wallets.
    Reminds me of a scene from the movie Secretariat. At a party, Ronnie Turcott, Secretariat’s diminutive jockey is with a tall, beautiful woman. Someone asks How did you find her Ronnie? Ronnie’s reply: ‘I told her I was taller when I was standing on my wallet.’
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

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