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Survivor bees vs regular stock and mite counts

39K views 102 replies 23 participants last post by  RiodeLobo 
#1 ·
Question - Since survivor bees are supposed to be better at cleaning themselves of mites, would it make sense that a mite count for them would be higher than for non-survivor bees?

I'm comparing a package of carniolan bees (california stock - I'm in Oregon) to survivor bees sold by Old Sol. The package of Carnies was installed in mid April and has been a roaring success. I'm about to harvest honey. The Survivor stock is from a very strong nuc installed amonth later in mid May. They are doing well also and I just added a honey super. Both hives are on a combination of small cell plastic and foundationless frames, though there are five large cell frames in the bottom deep that came with the nuc. Recently I noticed about 3 bees each day crawling on the ground in front of the survivor hive. Looks like frayed wings to me but I dont have the most experience at this and may not know deformed wings if I was looking at them. Completed a mite count on a sticky board with the following results.

The regular stock carniolans had a mite count of 10 in 24 hours.
The survivor stock had a mite count of 50 in 24 hours.

My problem is I don't know if survivor stock normally shows a higher count because they are supposed to clean off the mites better. I'm not going to treat the survivor stock, so that is not an issue. I bought them with the hope of them taking care of themselves. I am curious to know if a mite count would be higher for survivor bees over regular stock under normal circumstances.
 
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#2 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Unfortunately, mite drops don't tell the whole story. There are mites in the cells as well as wandering around the hive and hanging on to individual bees as well. What percent of these mites are to be found on the bottom board? Nobody knows exactly.

Applying my own cognitive biases to this finding, I could say that there are more mites on the floor of the survivor hive because they're actively getting rid of them whereas the Carniolans are not. That's a justification, not necessarily the correct answer.

There are quite a number of mechanisms by which bees are able to deal with mites. Perhaps they are deficient in one of the mechanisms by which they prevent reproduction, but proficient in a mechanism which rids the hive of grown mites. Again, not necessarily the correct answer.

Real understanding of a colony's abilities comes over the course of a year. I used to live a few miles from Old Sol (my nickname in the future probably) but I don't really remember what times of the year you'll find different behaviors. I do know that your area (SO as well) is generally in a dry time this time of year, brood production may well be declining, leaving more mites wandering around the hive, being knocked to the floor more often. If you are committed to treatment-free practice, watch and wait. High instantaneous mite count does not necessarily correlate to any specific long term condition with treatment-free bees. Last winter I had a hive visibly crawling with mites, and yet it's still alive today.

Keep us updated.
 
#3 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Thanks Solomom. You are correct in saying its dry here. I live on the east side of the mountains north of Bend. Brood production could be down as you say. I am going to wait and watch. I might try a powdered sugar dusting just to compare mite loads between the two hives, more out of curiosity than anything else. I will keep you posted.
 
#4 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

I've been to Redmond, Richardson's Rock Ranch, Big Lake, The Cove Palisades State Park and other areas around there. Maybe a little drier than I like and higher altitude, but like most of Oregon, very beautiful. I wouldn't refer to most of Arkansas as 'beautiful', no offense to any native Arkansans. The mountains aren't big enough and the trees aren't the right height. ;)

I used to recommend sugar dusting (not in this forum of course) for those who just couldn't not treat until I discovered a survey (posted a couple of times a few months back) which showed slightly higher (though not statistically significant) mortality on colonies that were sugar dusted. So my view is that if it doesn't help, and may actually hurt, why do it? In truth, much of my case against treatments has hinged on the fact that even the best treatments show only 5-10% lower mortality rate. I don't see that as an acceptable trade-off, not when success is to be had totally treatment-free.
 
#5 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Thanks Solomon. With that info. I will pass on the powdering as it was only a curiosity in the first place. I'm looking forward to a honey harvest in about a week. Seems I always do the best with new hives and struggle with the supposedly established ones.
 
#6 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

You need to use randy Olivers mite count method. 1/4 cup bees in alcohol. any more than 5 is bad. you may be right survivors may be kicking them off, but I Doubt it very much. If they kicked them off regularly you wouldn't have any to count. your bees kicking off 50 a day means there are a lot to kick off. I could make a comment here about small cell is supposed to cure all that but I won't.

The reality is that your survivor stock is probably that because it swarmed on a regular basis, swarming breaks that mite cycle. I do the same thing by removing queens as part of my mite control. Might consider that, cause that many on a drop board is an issue.

For DWV look at teh frames of brood. it will be obvious there, never noticed it outside the hive myself.
 
#7 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

:eek:t:
I am just finishing a week on Lake Billy Chinook. The Bass fishing has been slow this year and the weather colder and wetter than in the past. Still a great time though.
 
#11 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Billy Chinook! Do you live around here?
Nope, over in Baker City. However my family reunion is at the reservoir each year.

Back to bees, I am also using a mix of small cell and conventional. The only hive (1/8) that I know that I have major mite issues (seeing multiple bees with mites on board) is on the conventional cells. I am letting the bees do as they will do, but keep pulling the conventional frames and replacing them with small cell.
 
#9 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Charlie, I will have a look at the frames of brood and see what I find. As to the small cell, my attitude is that it can't hurt. What I'm really in the process of doing is moving to foundationless. I am seeing great success with it in the second super and in honey supers. I like it and will be trying to figure out a way to move in that direction in the deep supers.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

The regular stock carniolans had a mite count of 10 in 24 hours.
The survivor stock had a mite count of 50 in 24 hours.
I have survivor bees. Right now, my smaller hive (1 deep, 1 shallow) has 24h count of 2. Another hive, which is huge, 6 mediums and very active, has constant mite count around 50. At the beginning, it concerns me since 50 sounds like a huge number. Nevertheless, hive is doing extremely well (by my observation) for the last 10 months. So, I agree with you, that higher mite counts are not necessary an indication of the problem - bees just clean themselves better, thus - more mites away from the hive. My bees actually have a dedicated area at the landing deck for cleaning - they spent quite a bit of time cleaning... there are special controller-bees, who actually do "quality control" and let clean enough bees in, seriously!
Also, I think, the mite counts must be normalized to the number of bees in the hive. In my case, weak small recently swarmed hive has much smaller counts. I would expect the increase of mite counts as hive is getting stronger. The dead bees at the front is alarming sign. I do not have it. I would watch the hive to see if help needed. So far, I did not treat my bees in any way, they are natural as much as they are. And yes, I am foundationless. I love my survival bees! Sergey
 
#15 · (Edited)
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Please take a cappings scrapper and open up drone brood in both hives and report back with your findings.Crazy Roland
Roland
I find it adequate to use a sticky board to evaluate mite counts in my two hives (permitted in SM). Since, the count is stable for the large hive for the 10 months, I feel there is no need to do more invasive counting - it would not change the picture to me. As for small hive - I attribute low counts to recent dramatic swarm, when literally 75% of colony left... My current theory is that the mite count is composed from "mites per bee"; bee's "cleaning efficiency" coefficient; screen efficiency (% mites catch by sticky board) and probably few more factors. Assuming that "cleaning efficiency" and screen factor are constant, than, mite count will increase if (a) population of bees increased and/or (b) "mites per bee" increased. Thus, we need to watch both: bees count and mites count. If bees count decreases and mite count increases - this would be very alarming signal to me - reason, to do a deep inspection. Since, in my large hive, bees number increases and mite count is stable, it actually means (if my theory is correct) that number of mites per bee is decreasing, which is good. Since, I permitted to have only two hives, the management is different from "classical" approach. I am practicing a natural beekeeping.

By the way, alcohol mite count (1/2 cup of bees) is normalized to amount of bees, 1/2 cup. This is probably most accurate method. Also, in bee class, they told us that on the frame if you actually do see a single bee with mite attached - this is sign of very serious infestation. It corresponds to 10-15 mites in alcohol test (we did a comparison).
Sergey
 
#17 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

I find it adequate to use a sticky board to evaluate mite counts in my two hives

And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.

Cerezha wrote:

I am practicing a natural beekeeping.

SO naturally you will have mites? Or are natural mites better?

Crazy Roland
 
#32 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

...And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.
SO naturally you will have mites? Or are natural mites better? Crazy Roland
Hi Roland
In order to fulfill your request and get truthful data, we need to count at least 100 drones (statistics, you know...). I am reluctant to do so... My philosophy is that bees do have mites, parasites... my cat has flees... it is not nice but as long as it is not a pandemic, most animals could "co-exist" with "visitors"... some, better than others (we called them "survivors"). Mite's counting in most cases are non-scientific and I just do not believe in this. As I explained above, I use sticky board as an indicator for tendency - is count stable? When you do counts regularly it gives you an idea what is going on in the hive. My methods are different from commercial beekeeping - I could afford to observe my bees closely. Sergey
 
#18 ·
#19 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

"Since survivor bees are supposed to be better at cleaning themselves of mites, would it make sense that a mite count for them would be higher than for non-survivor bees"

Only if you have two colonies with the same mite infestation, then yes, a more aggressive grooming colony would have a higher mite count.

Whalers, dont that this the wrong way ok because this statement is not directed to you. Any experience beek with a few years experience knows and will expect a higher mite load in a colony stared from a nucleus colony than a package! In fact I would expect exactly what you are reporting. Why? Because the nucleus colony had brood and therefore it easily had 3 times the mite load from the moment you installed it into a hive. The package only had varroa that hitched a ride on the bees, wile the Nucleus had hitch hikers, and a generation of reproducing varroa mites.

If you want to understand and compare mite loads accurately between two colonies then you need to take a capping scratcher and pull drone brood to see how many varroa per Drone pupa you find. Otherwise the only thing you are doing adequately with a sticky board or mite drop is forming wild theory about survivor bees versus normal bees.
 
#20 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

Or you could say that mite drops only tell you how many dead mites there are, not how many live mites there might be. ot having much experience w/ sticky boards, recently, I tend to prefer ether rolls as an indicator of mite counts in a hive.

My sticky board experience is 25 years old when we used sticky boards to see how much mite kill occured in the first 24 hours after the application of Apistan Strips. Maybe we should have had sticky boards in the same hives the previous 24 hours to be able to tell natural mite drop, but we didn't.

What was amazng to me was the amount of mite kill which occured in the first hour, from the time we installed the first sticky board and strip in the first colony, finished applying strips to the rest of the yd and then checked the first stickyboard for our own curiosity. Amzing amount of kill.

In any one mite control application, most of the kill occurs in the first 24 hours or so.
 
#21 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

I like some of the post about survivor bees. My bees are JUST BEES they live OR DIE on there own I treat them just like they were treated when i got them WITH NOTHING . If i have a hive that makes it through winter and is slow to build up the next summer then the following year i may requeen with a queen raised from 1 of my better producing hives or they swarm and requeen themselves. Idont keep bees to harvest huge amounts of honey I keep bees for relaxation and enjoyment the honey i harvest and sale and the cut outs that i do and charge for goes right back into the bees for equipment for more swarms and cut outs SURE it is work but it is also very relaxing and a joy to work bees and see the fruits of there labor
 
#24 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

True, though you took them on as yours, not Mother Natures. I see no difference between honeybees and other livestock. As a beekeeper, any bees I have in my boxes I feel obligation to tend to, care for, do my best to see they survive and thrive. Not that I am always successful.

You mentioned enjoying seeing the fruits of their labor which you also mentioned benfiting from. Just seems like maybe a one way street.

I'm sure these comments of mine may seem judgemental. I don't mean for them to appear so. I do not look down on you your way of doin things. I don't know you well enough to critisize you as a person or as a beekeeper. As far as I know you are a good beekeeper. PLease don't take me the wrong way. I tend to ask questions. And I am sure there is more that you and I do in similar fashion than not.

Be well.
 
#27 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

I understand where you are coming from and i hate to type so a lot of my posts may not come to the screen as i meant them to be . All i mean is let the bees bee bees. Yes i feed sugar water to weak hives and feed them honey that i have harvested from other hives. But i do not use ANY CHEMICALS AT ALL .dont spray the lawn for weeds or use bug dust in the garden unless the green beans need a shot early in the year.
 
#28 ·
Re: Survivor bees vs regular stock adn mite counts

"Since survivor bees are supposed to be better at cleaning themselves of mites, would it make sense that a mite count for them would be higher than for non-survivor bees?" Could you reference a study or two on this? I would feel better about it if you would , or some other Beek would post those studies. If convinced I will post haste look to get survivor bees. But, to buttress your statement/question, I do have BWeaver bees and HoneyBeeGenitics bees, all treatment free. Does that count as survivor bees?

This whole topic is very important to me as I want healthy bees that are as treatment free as makes good sense. I would feel better about bees that swarm away from me if they had been adapted to treatment free life.

It is July and the pollen (and nectar?) is rolling in, Bee Happy! :applause:
 
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