Survivor bees vs regular stock and mite counts

[Roland]

Sergey. I repeat:

...And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.

Note the drone BROOD report, how many mites are in the capped drone BROOD.

I believe it was Whaler that found alot in the drone brood, but not dropping? Please, humor me.

Whaler - try striking the drone brood every 14 days, record your findings.

CRazy ROland

[cerezha]

Sergey. I repeat:
...And I don't, which is why I asked for a drone brood report. I do not care how many mites are dying, I care how many mites are being born.

Roland
I do understand your point, but your approach just would not work for my situation. I have literally feral (survivor) bees, they are foundationless. It means that they are normal size - much smaller than drones. The initial problem with mites arise when large cell foundation were used - worker bees become bigger and mites attacked them as drones. In nature, mites parasite mostly drones and it does not affect seriously the worker population. In my case, if mite's count on drones would be high - it means nothing, since, mites "prefer" drones and do not attack workers. It is known phenomena and "natural" way of mite control (natural cells). Also, in my case, I was using screen with smaller mesh (enough for mites). I think,it is beneficial to bees - my observation is that they regulate temperature by gathering on the screen (whole screen covered with bees), so it is easy to damp mites to the sticky board. I do not think that all mites were dead before touching sticky board. My feeling (no proof) is that mites come to the sticky board alive as a result of bees cleaning herself (and each-other) on the screen - I saw this all the time. Sergey

[sqkcrk]

Maybe someone should be scratching worker brood to see if this is true or not.

[wadehump]

Maybe someone should be scratching worker brood to see if this is true or not.

Have checked worker brood and drone brood when doing cutouts. Very little if any mites in worker brood , drone brood has mites although not loaded up with a lot of mites.

[sqkcrk]

I wouldn't think that cut out data would corrolate to what is found in managed colonies. Conditions, ie proximity, are different.

[BEES4U]

FYI:
The VSH trait/traits have been incorporated into the gene pool from good genetics and that needs to be factored into the survivor bees theory.

[wadehump]

I wouldn't think that cut out data would corrolate to what is found in managed colonies. Conditions, ie proximity, are different.

I know that cut out data would be a little bit flawed but that is what my bees are swarms and cutouts. That is all i have to go by even in my hives i dont see alot of mites i know they are there but i just dont have a huge problem with mites. Proximity would bee the same as all of my bees have came from a 3 county area with the same weather conditions and floral make up .

[Solomon Parker]

...that needs to be factored into the survivor bees theory.

Please explain.

[wadehump]

FYI:
The VSH trait/traits have been incorporated into the gene pool from good genetics and that needs to be factored into the survivor bees theory.

In the state of ohio there are 88 counties. In my home county there are only 18 registered aparies in the county which ranks us as the 4th lowest. The 2nd and 3rd counties border my home county the lowest county is 150 + to the north of me. I dont see a huge flood of VSH traits being brought into my area what i do see is bees that have adapted to the mites over the last 20 years plus since the mites showed up.

[cerezha]

I wouldn't think that cut out data would corrolate to what is found in managed colonies. Conditions, ie proximity, are different.

It perfectly correlates with my theory since I was talking about survival/semi-feral bees. I do not think, that my theory is suitable to commercial beekeeping. Also, it is not exactly my theory - it is a summary of my reading about bees. Sergey

[sqkcrk]

I know that cut out data would be a little bit flawed but that is what my bees are swarms and cutouts. That is all i have to go by even in my hives i dont see alot of mites i know they are there but i just dont have a huge problem with mites. Proximity would bee the same as all of my bees have came from a 3 county area with the same weather conditions and floral make up .

How many hives do you have in one yd from swarms and cut outs?
Have you had them for a while?
Do you do mite checks? What method?

My point, inadequately expressed, was that what one finds in a cutout or swarm would be different from what I would expect to find in managed colonies because generally speaking bees in walls swarm more often, it is thought, and there aren't as many in any given space as there are in almost any given managed apiary. Whereas feral colonies are sometimes found relatively close to each other, finding 5 or ten of them as close to each other as the common backyard beekeeper does is rare, I believe.

When we keep hives as close together as we do, it is little trouble for mites to travel from hive to hive. That is what I was getting at.

Sergey, that's an interesting idea about larger worker cells being attractive to female varroa mites. What I had thought I had heard was that some genetic change had occured in the varroa. It would be interesting to know the differences in cell size betwween Apis mellifera and Apis dorsata, the original host of Varroa. Does anyone know where that data can be found?

[wadehump]

[QUOTE=sqkcrk;832214]How many hives do you have in one yd from swarms and cut outs?
Have you had them for a while?
Do you do mite checks? What method?

28 hives total in 2 yards 16 in 1 and 12 in the other. all are swarms and cutouts 16 of them are 2 years old 3 are 4 years old the others are from this year . no i dont do any mites other than when doing cutoutd and looking at drone brood .

[sqkcrk]

thanks.

[Luterra]

I've also got a hive from an Old Sol nuc this year. It came with only around three frames of bees so took awhile to build up but now has a full two deeps (though no surplus). They do burr comb like no others and attack like crazy if I open the brood nest, which means they get inspected less than my other hives.

They have, as of the latest count, a daily mite drop of 58.

Now I realize this is the treatment-free forum, so I kind of know what answers to expect, but I'm debating whether to give them a dose of Apiguard. I started out last year wanting to be treatment free but lost both of my two hives. Mites were not definitely the cause but they were a contributing factor. This year I want to be successful to prove to myself that I can keep bees, even if that means treating. So, on the one hand it would suck to lose my $130 "survivor" bees over winter. On the other hand those expensive bees are pretty worthless if I have to treat to keep them alive.

Any other experiences with Old Sol bees? Do they overwinter well in spite of high mite counts?

Mark

[Solomon Parker]

I welcome you to debate Apiguard to your ultimate satisfaction, in some other forum.

[whalers]

I also purchased Survivor nucs from Old Sol this year. Like you, they did not build up fast and produced no extra honey and also like you they produce tons of burr comb and even more propolis. Unlike you, mine are quite tame and I have little problem with them. Our mite counts are about the same, around 60 per day, but they seem healthy enough. I am going to requeen one of them with a hygenic Italian queen (from Olivarez bees) and just ordered the queen today. I'm hoping for less propolis production and more honey. I think the Old Sol bees will winter alright as they have the stores necessary, but they are carrying a pretty large mite load right now so I guess we will see. One way or the other I will not be treating. I made that decision when I ordered up the Old Sol nucs and I'm not going back on it.

I've also got a hive from an Old Sol nuc this year. It came with only around three frames of bees so took awhile to build up but now has a full two deeps (though no surplus). They do burr comb like no others and attack like crazy if I open the brood nest, which means they get inspected less than my other hives.

They have, as of the latest count, a daily mite drop of 58.

Now I realize this is the treatment-free forum, so I kind of know what answers to expect, but I'm debating whether to give them a dose of Apiguard. I started out last year wanting to be treatment free but lost both of my two hives. Mites were not definitely the cause but they were a contributing factor. This year I want to be successful to prove to myself that I can keep bees, even if that means treating. So, on the one hand it would suck to lose my $130 "survivor" bees over winter. On the other hand those expensive bees are pretty worthless if I have to treat to keep them alive.

Any other experiences with Old Sol bees? Do they overwinter well in spite of high mite counts?

Mark

[Luterra]

Thanks for the response. They were a bit more mild-mannered when I opened the hive yesterday - or at least one of my other hives is now significantly meaner than they are. I haven't seen the excessive propolis. They never expanded their brood nest beyond the bottom box but did fill the second chock full of honey.

It appears I broke a rule by mentioning the name of a treatment here. Kind of like talking about bacon on a vegetarian forum :-)

Mark

[Keth Comollo]

Even vegetarians like bacon!!

[whalers]

Our experiences are much the same. I was in one of the hives today and it looks quite healthy, but just like you, bottom box is brood and the box above it is full of honey. Thats pretty much all they did. They look good for the winter, but didnt make any extra honey for me.

Thanks for the response. They were a bit more mild-mannered when I opened the hive yesterday - or at least one of my other hives is now significantly meaner than they are. I haven't seen the excessive propolis. They never expanded their brood nest beyond the bottom box but did fill the second chock full of honey.

It appears I broke a rule by mentioning the name of a treatment here. Kind of like talking about bacon on a vegetarian forum :-)

Mark

[RiodeLobo]

No windbreaks, no mouseguards, no top insulation. I do reduce entrances. It comes from the concept that bees do not heat the hive. They only heat the cluster. Relatively speaking, the hive will be nearly as cold inside as outside if the cluster's extents do not reach the wall.

So you don't have any issues with condensation?