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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Eugene, Or
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    97

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Quote Originally Posted by bees4lifeapiary View Post
    I have a 15 gallong igloo water cooler with the spout at the bottom I pulled the spout out and ran a 1/2 inch line through it with a ball valve and a clear hose hanging off of it.I pou 50 cups of surgar and 50 cups of water in it and use hose water and a drill to mix it, I mix it 2 mintes let it sit then go back for couple minutes and off to the hives I go 30 of them
    So your 1:1 is by volume and not by weight? I've wondered what 1:1 means and have made syrup both ways....not sure what is correct but I assume 'by weight' is what is meant?

  2. #22
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    Mar 2012
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    Ankeny, Iowa, USA
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    577

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    I think the main concern is Cane vs Beet. I have never found Corn Sugar to purchase. What is the difference of Cane vs. Beet?

  3. #23
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    Apr 2011
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    Eugene, Or
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    97

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Im not sure of the differences but I do know I have been warned by numerous beekeepers to stick with the cane sugar. I was advised that the 'raw' cane sugar was even better as it has not been as uber processed. I think the corn sugar you can buy is usually (always?) in the syrup form as High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS).

    When ever I hear that all sugars are the same I am reminded that at one time "8 out of 10 doctors recommend smoking Chesterfields". We are only as smart as out scientists and researchers. There was a line of commercials a bit ago that claimed sugar is sugar. They no longer get played. Read Michael Pollen's, an investigative reporter for the New York Times, books on the food industry "The Omnivorous Dilemma". Scary stuff

  4. #24
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    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
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    651

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Not being able to mix sugar and water seems to be a serious dis-qualifier for beekeeping. Obviously you have access to the web.

  5. #25
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    Jul 2011
    Location
    Evansville, IN
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    2,473

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    All grocery store sugar is ACS grade pure sucrose. Some will have a bit more color than others, but it's still 99.9% pure sucrose. There is NO difference between beet and cane sugar if it's white.

    You should NOT use any other form of sucrose (no brown sugar, no "unrefined" sugar, etc) because it contains substances that the bees cannot digest. This leaves the bee's gut full of semi-liquid feces at a time they cannot take cleansing flights (winter) and the result is dysentary. It may only cause serious spotting on the hive and immediate vicinity when it warms up, but it can also lead to the bees being forced to defecate in the hive. That will cause a serious spread of Nosema if any is present (and there usually is some low level of spores) and you get a sick hive.

    Same is true of feeding high fat soy flour -- it's not the proper food source and causes dysentary in the winter.

    On the subject of syrup, I've never had the slightest bit of trouble dissolving one part sugar in one part water -- takes a couple minutes of stirring, but it all dissolves. 2:1 requires some heat, but not that much.

    High Fructose corn syrup is fine so long as it's fresh and has not been heated during shipment. If it's discolored (it should be water white or very very pale amber), it contains HMF from being heated in the truck or storage, and this compound is fairly toxic to bees. Otherwise, it's fine. However, unless you can use it in bulk, it's more expensive to handle than sugar syrup in small quantities.

    Peter

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
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    17

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    i was trying to make 4 gal of 2:1 syrup but i accidentally let it boil. when it cooled down it turned into a hard block. what should i do, heat it up again? i don't want to put it on the hives warm... but then it will turn back into a rock... right? this doesn't happen when i only make 2gal or so and don't let it boil. oops.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
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    5,300

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    jones,
    I'm afraid your solid sugar syrup is no longer fit to feed bees. Kinda like peanut brittle, without the peanuts. Heating it that hot for that long has likely caramelized some of the sugar, making it indigestible for the bees.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
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    17

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    ah crap. i'm not very good in the kitchen obviously. thanks for saving me the trouble of figuring it out myself!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!


  10. #30
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    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
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    2,367

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelbor View Post
    12.Myth: they may seem the same until you take it down to the molecular level......Atoms from corn are way different then atoms from Cane. They are NOT the same and digestion does not happen the same. Wrong place for this discussion though........
    Sorry the atoms are all the same, there is just a different arrangement and numbers (sucrose to HFCS). Pure sucrose is the same no matter where you get it from.

    For 2:1 I bring the water to a boil, take it off the heat source and pour half the sugar in, stir and pour in the other half and stir. Mixes in great and the addition of the sugar usually cools the water quite a bit (hot but not enough to burn you).
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  11. #31
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    May 2012
    Location
    Maryville, tn, usa
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    208

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    If sugar and corn syrup were the same then how do they test honey for being cut with hfcs. Or how come heating sugar like has been done in the post above takes it to hard ball stage which is okay to feed to bees unless it has changed color whereas heating hfcs can create hydroxymethylfurfural toxic to bees. Glucose in table sugar is absorbed in stomach fructose is absorbed in liver... and really most here remember coke before 1980's it tasted different so did twinkies.

    On this I may be wrong but I also use 1:1 by volumn fill container half full with sugar and add hot water and stir topping off with more hot water and cider vinegar

  12. #32
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    Jul 2011
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    Evansville, IN
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    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Table sugar is sucrose, made up of one molecule of glucose and one molecule of fructose chemically tied together. Sucrose is a neutral sugar since the ester bond that connects them "hides" the aldedehyde group that makes glucose and fructose "reducing" sugars -- they are chemically a reducing agent.

    That open, hence reactive, aldehyde group is what makes high fructose corn syrup (and honey, by the way) much more likely to produce HMF when heated. Honey has other things in it that reduce the tendency some, but HFCS does not, since it is fructose, glucose, and maltose I think. Might be some sucrose, but not particularly likely as the starch it's made from doesn't contain any.

    Cane and beet sugar are idential for beekeeping purposes. Different origin, but both are very pure sucrose with very little residual molasses.

    It is possible to tell if honey has been cut with sucrose or high fructose corn syrup simply due to the relative abundance of sucrose, glucose, and fructose. Most plant nectar is high is sucrose and low in reducing sugars, although the ratios vary by species. Dilution with HFCS will show up as a higher ratio of fructose to glucose and sucrose than honey normally has, and any other "unnatural" sugars will show up as well. Honey usually has fairly low levels of sucrose, since the bees enzymatially dis-assemble the sucrose into glucose and fructose while processing nectar into honey.

    The ratios for mixing syrup are for weight, not volume. Water and sugar have a similar weight and the ratio is not critical, so equal volumes will give very close to the same ratio as equal weight. However, filling a container half way with dry sucrose and filling it with water will give a ratio with excess water -- I only get about 3 and a half cups of syrup by mixing two cups of sugar with two cups of water. As far as feeding bees, it makes no difference at all, but the ratio is not 1:1. When the sugar dissolves in the water, it "shrinks", taking up less space than if it were a dry solid. Part of this is the air space between the crystals, part of it is the air within the crystals, but most of it is that the water molecules fit between and inside the sugar molecules.

    Peter

  13. #33
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    Eugene, Or
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    97

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Quote Originally Posted by RiodeLobo View Post
    Sorry the atoms are all the same, there is just a different arrangement and numbers (sucrose to HFCS). Pure sucrose is the same no matter where you get it from.

    For 2:1 I bring the water to a boil, take it off the heat source and pour half the sugar in, stir and pour in the other half and stir. Mixes in great and the addition of the sugar usually cools the water quite a bit (hot but not enough to burn you).
    Oh yeah, I guess you are right...Except for that both cane sugar and HFCS are processed. Cane sugar results in pure sucrose, and HFCS results in a combination of glucose and fructose. Both the Corn Refiners Association and the Sugar Association, as well as the U.S. government's Food Pyramid, suggest limiting intake of any form of sugar, whether glucose, fructose or sucrose.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ezW4SP6gJS...00/hexoses.gif

  14. #34
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    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
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    2,367

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Quote Originally Posted by danmcm View Post
    If sugar and corn syrup were the same then how do they test honey for being cut with hfcs.
    You are mistaking molecules for atoms. The molecules are different but the atoms are not (Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen).
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  15. #35
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    May 2012
    Location
    Maryville, tn, usa
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    208

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Wasn't missing it myself but since we are doing chemistry class my point was this: It's pure fructose, it's sucrose, it's pure sugar.... It's not.
    "Domestic and imported honey samples contained 2.00% maltose and 0.71% isomaltose. HFCS samples contained 1.50% maltose, and 2.09% isomaltose" this is how they tell difference in adulterated samples of honey with spectometry and there is a protein analysis methods as well... both have problems and are only 85% at best so lotsa false positives which is what china is yelling about.... anyway

  16. #36
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    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
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    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    We appear to be talking about different issues.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    roswell, georgia, USA
    Posts
    720

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    mix the stuff by volume in hot tap water and stir (I use a big plastic slotted kitchen spoon) and make up about 4 gal at a time - just fills my top hive feeders, you might have better luck adding the sugar to the water, since you will be adding concentration instead of decreasing it - works fine and is as close to the ratio you and the bees are looking for - molecules and atoms aside.
    EAS Georgia Certified. "Tradition - Even if you have done it the same way for years doesn't mean that it is not stupid."

  18. #38
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    Eugene, Or
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    97

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Wow - this thread sure got derailed. Sorry OP!

    I guess I am still wondering what the consensus is on if you guys mix by weight (ie. 1 gallon of water to 8 pounds sugar for 1:1) or volume ( 1 gallon water to four quarts of sugar for 1:1).

    I am fairly new to this and have been going by weights.....

  19. #39
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    Jul 2011
    Location
    Evansville, IN
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    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    The ratio will be slightly different if you use volume rather than weight, but it's easier in many cases and the exact ratio is hardly critical. Only problem I can see is that you will have crystalization problems with 2:1 syrup if the ratio is "heavy" on sugar.

    The bees will be happy in any case.

    Peter

  20. #40
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    May 2009
    Location
    roswell, georgia, USA
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    720

    Default Re: tap water and mixing sugar water. don't work!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelbor View Post
    Wow - this thread sure got derailed. Sorry OP!

    I guess I am still wondering what the consensus is on if you guys mix by weight (ie. 1 gallon of water to 8 pounds sugar for 1:1) or volume ( 1 gallon water to four quarts of sugar for 1:1).

    I am fairly new to this and have been going by weights.....
    Pour the sugar or water into a measuring device and add the equal amount of water/sugar (the same level line on the device) - this as is close as you or the bees want to deal with - if you want some other concentration, the math is simple. If the true ratio is important to you (the bees don't care, by the way), there are many threads on the actual ratio and you can use - essentially fill the container with water to a specific amount, then add sugar until that volume is doubled (1:1).

    Rocket Scientist
    EAS Georgia Certified. "Tradition - Even if you have done it the same way for years doesn't mean that it is not stupid."

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