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Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012

125K views 231 replies 30 participants last post by  cerezha 
#1 · (Edited)
I am in the process of switching to all foundationless in my two Lang hives permitted in Santa Monica, CA.

To me,the foundationless approach has many advantages:
(a) easy to build, no special care required (waxing, wiring, foundation installation etc);
(b) in combination with mediums - it is universal for all bee-hive related tasks (brood chamber, honey supers etc);
(c) freshly made wax, no "drawn comb" worries, no old comb issues;
(d) easy to extract honey especially at the small scale (hobbyist type), crush-and-strain, no special equipment required; shape of the comb is not important; there are byproducts of extraction - honey-vine and wax.
(e) bees choose proper (for them!) size for the comb cells; they maintain proper bee-space in accordance to their needs.

I am harvesting a few totally foundationless "frames" every few weeks. Note that there is only a top bar from the standard frame has been shown in one picture.

Disclaimer: Welcome to this thread. This post has no intention to discuss comparison between foundation and foundationless, frame or frameless approaches. It is for pictures of your foundationless/frameless achevements in Lang hive! Please, feel free to post pictures of your foundationless/frameless latest honey crop here. Sergey
 

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#3 ·
ooooo
Thank you! It is expensive one. I got it for Christmas. Very well vented, well suited for California weather (also -fresh from the washer...). In our bee-class, I felt, I am a "star" in this bee-suit, first time in my life! Sergey
 
#7 ·
AkDan
My theory is that,if foundationless frame (bar) stays in the hive long enough, girls started all kind of comb "renovation". In this case they added an extra layer of the comb on top of the older comb. I have no idea how technically it was done. So, the main honeycomb is older, darker, and lighter part is just freshly cupped newer comb. I guess, honey in original comb is older and thus, may potentially be from different source (different color). In this case, I think, "color" difference is only fresh very light cupping vs older darker cupping. I do not think, the honey was different... but who knows - now, all these honey is mixed together producing wonderful golden tint! Thanks for visiting this post. Good luck with your project. Sergey
 
#12 ·
More similarities Sergey, but I am using the Walter T. Kelley foundationless frames with the bottom bar. My TBH is 48" and I am building the bars on Sat. ( no bees yet). I got 20 med. super and 10 deep frames from Kelley until I see how they work. I installed 4 deeps, 2 per box, and 2 super frames last weekend. I will try to get some pictures this weekend to share.
Later, and nice set up!
 
#14 ·
Mike
My feelings are: as long as you crush-and-strain (which is what I do), the design of frames absolutely does not matter. I tried all combinations - "popsicle"-type starter, grove with wax; full frame; frame with sides; "frame" without bottom and sides. All of them worked for my bees. But, I implemented entirely different (?) management. Since we are in SoCal and something always is blooming, we have no seasons. So, I remove honey every month or so. My normal yield is 4 frames. I took every other frame and replace it with empty one - sort of checker-boarding. This way, bees are always busy "repairing" the damage in their nicely organized honey-storage. At the same time, I do minimal nest management since I am novice and I just afraid to do more harm than good. Good luck with your project! Post a pictures! Sergey
 
#17 ·
Interesting idea. In fact, I do make my own cosmetics and I am using wax for candles. But, the reality is that there is so little of wax per frame, less than 100 g. Currently, I have more honey than wax and my friends demanded not only honey but wax also.
Sergey
 
#20 ·
Maybe I will take photos next time I am in a hive. My Lang boxes are set up 2 plasticell, 1 foundationless, 4 plasticell, 1 foundationless and 1 plasticell. I've heard the bees won't draw out the plastic frames, but they do. Or they have for me.

All frames are dadant, plasticell is dadant wax coated light colored (to help me see shb, mites, etc), wooden frames are wedge type strung with 20lb test weight fishing line in a horizontal bar pattern topped by x pattern. So if I'm sticking in a piece of comb from a cutout, I just pop it right side up in between the fishinglines and MAYBE add a rubber band.

Bees have drawn out a gold solid 5 deeps and 4 mediums this year. Good enough for me. Next year I will sub out some plastic and sub in some more foundationless. And I get 100 degree temps here, I just do not do inspections in 100 degree weather and not support the bottom of the comb. I try to work at 90 degrees or less.

One day I will have honey. For today, I mainly have stored sugar water, but my bees came AFTER the flow, so I'm lucky I've got anything.

Gypsi
 
#21 ·
Hey Gypsi
Thanks for vising! Take a pictures and post here (or other place). I would be interested to compare side-by-side plastic foundation comb and foundationless. Camera is my essential tool when I do an inspection - if I have any questions etc., I just take a picture to see in details later. My camera has good macros, so I really could see small details on the picture, which I could not in the field when working the hive.

As you could see, all my frames (at least honey) are foundationless and truncated. Most of them are very nice and straight. From time to time, bees decided to do improvisation, than I have a "double-deck" honey combs - they build one thick one instead two... Since, I crush-and-strain, really not big deal. Problem with these double-deck frames - they are too heavy, so I could not hold them by one hand to take a picture. May be next time if I will have assistant. Good luck with your bees! Sergey
 
#22 · (Edited)
Today's inspection and honey harvest 9-25-2012.
Man, bees were very unhappy when I get into the beehive... Bees are busy bringing more nectar in the hive (California!) and they are short in storage space. But, I do not feel comfortable adding 7th(!) medium...we are in earthquake zone; sometime I have nightmares what if this bee-sky-scraper will collapse from earthquake? So, I just steal 5 frames of honey creating some space for them. 5 frames - probably 15 pounds of early fall California honey! On the picture - what is happened when foundationless frame sit too long in the hive and girls decided to do home improvements... They basically, created a second layer of honeycomb on top of previous one. I do not know if similar possible on frames with foundation? I wish you to have a great honey crop! Take care, Sergey

Update - I upload a few more pictures of the harvested frames. All of them are foundationless and many - truncated. Note that all frames had no cross comb or attachment to the walls issues.
 

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#23 ·
>they are short in storage space. But, I do not feel comfortable adding 7th(!) medium...

There is a manipulation called "harvest crop and extract." Maybe you should read up on it.
 
#24 ·
There is a manipulation called "harvest crop and extract." Maybe you should read up on it.
Hi Frank, many thanks for suggestion. Quick search did not give me a good answer what you meant "harvest crop and extract"... Since I have only two hives permitted and I am foundationless, my flexibility is limited. My bees are also quite protective of their storage and especially nest. What I used to do - I left upper box full of hone to the bees. Periodically, I took 4 frames with honey from the next box (#2 from the top) and replace them with new frames. No drawn comb since I an foundationless and crush-and-strain... It is sort of checker boarding... It worked quite well for entire year. But recently, I discovered the brood in box #2 (from the top) - girls effectively screwed up my approach... So, by all my logic, I should add empty box between #1&2, but then - I'll have 7 medium store monster standing on unstable slope literally 20 feet from my garden and house... All my attempts to reduce the nest cause them to expand! The whole hive is boiled with bees now. I would really appreciate any suggestions. Many thanks for visiting. Sergey
 
#25 ·
Let me try again..."harvest the crop and crush and strain". Three mediums of honey and brood with an empty on top should be a good winter size for your climate.
 
#28 ·
You would need a lot of jars to empty three supers and get the bees down to a manageable height. Hmmm...

If you leave it on, and something goes wrong, (shb, wax moth) you will lose it.
 
#30 ·
....If you leave it on, and something goes wrong, (shb, wax moth) you will lose it.
Shhhhhh, do not tell!!!! I know... the problem is that they extended the nest up into box #5 (from the bottom). I am waiting until they hopefully will shrink a little bit before the "winter". Well, we have no winter and girls are very active - I opened completely the entrance a week ago. Right now they are filling up the box #6 - all foundation and frame-less. Beautiful comb! I wish, I would take pictures during last inspection - but girls were not in picture-shooting mood at all! There is no way I could shrink it down to "normal" 3 mediums. The best would be 4 mediums... Many thanks for visiting this thread. Sergey
 
#29 ·
I have a full bait hive at a friend's house that has a super of surplus honey on it and his wife is objecting to me harvesting it. She wants to buy the honey from me and leave it on the hive. SHB's best friend.
 
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