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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    ...I use a lot of 11 1/4" frames. After 42 years just starting to test 8 frame hives with all medium supers. In my climate a double deep traps too much honey and has to be cleaned out in early spring, same goes for the 11 1/4" frames.
    So, I guess the strategy would be that frame should be large enough (long) to accommodate most of the nest (brood) but not much honey. My current approach with TBs and 1/2 sided frames (Bernhard) is so, that I could add "extender" between two bodies (or on the top) and bees could extend the comb into new dimension. For instance, to my 9" box, I could add 5 1/2" shallow, which would make 14 1/2" long comb. Or I could build 3" extender for my horizontal hive to have 11" -long comb. In my situation I am using all home-made hardware, which is interchangeable and compatible to Lang - I learned my lesson!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  2. #102
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
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    5,041

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    >So, I guess the strategy would be that frame should be large enough (long) to accommodate most of the nest (brood) but not much honey.

    In our mild climates yes...but in the real world - no. I think Brother Adam liked his 12 frame Jumbo depth boxes because they were big enough for the queen and winter stores. But for you and I they are also honey vaults that need robbing to keep them open. I am starting to think that an eight frame Jumbo depth brood chamber would be good for us as it would push the UN-needed winter stores up into the honey supers. I think I feel yet another footprint of hives coming.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Winthrop, WA
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    53

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Great thanks...I am thinking either of popsicle sticks or just using some of the extra foundation I have...cutting it into strips..however I don't have any wax...can't I just glue it? Another person suggested paint sticks but, the ones I brought home looked kind of warped.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    San Mateo, Ca, USA
    Posts
    408

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Halley,
    I think you'd be better off not using the sticks. I've never tried it, but I've heard from others that using paint or popcicle sticks make the comb less sturdy than if the bee's drew their wax directly on the frame and it doesn't always ensure that the comb gets drawn out in the right direction. Last year I had no problem with the bees drawling out on empty foundation. For my setup I had each empty frame nested between two frames with foundation and that ensured that the bees drew the comb in the right direction. I use deeps and I would say that last year's drawn frames needed some additional support to keep it sturdy. I'm addressing that this year by adding small wooden dowels (the thinnest ones you can get at home depot). Lowe's supposedly has even thinner dowels. My idea is to have these frames be used for multiple purpose (could be used for drone comb, natural sized brood comb, cut comb honey, etc) so my dowels are strategically placed in a way that I can cut off the bottom of the comb for drones, or fit the cutting tool for cutting squares out for honey, etc. I'm trying out a couple different configurations with the dowels to see what works best. Will see how it goes this year.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Winthrop, WA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Thanks, BayHighlandBees..dowels see like a much better alternative than popsicle sticks...having hubby bring home some tomorrow(he works in a hardware stor) The smallest is 1/8" and then the next size is a quarter..so we'll see.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Carlsford, Indiana, USA
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012

    Each foundationless frame of fully capped honey is individually selected at the optimal time for harvest. My comb honey is hand cut and does not contain wax foundation.

    Foundationless Frame Harvest Photo

    Foundationless Comb Honey Photo

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Rock Port, MO. USA.
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012

    To Eccentricbeekeeper,

    Your Comb honey sure looks yummy!

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by eccentricbeekeeper View Post
    Each foundationless frame of fully capped honey is individually selected at the optimal time for harvest. My comb honey is hand cut and does not contain wax foundation.

    Foundationless Frame Harvest Photo

    Foundationless Comb Honey Photo
    Great pictures! Many thanks for sharing.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #109
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    .. I am starting to think that an eight frame Jumbo depth brood chamber would be good for us as it would push the UN-needed winter stores up into the honey supers. I think I feel yet another footprint of hives coming.
    Interesting. As a novice in beekeeping, I was exited with all-mediums approach because it is simple and universal. But reality pushing me towards non-symmetrical hive with bigger frames in the nest. I nearly get into another extreme - super-large frames, but you helped me to understand that this is not the best solution for our situation ether. Many thanks!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Winthrop, WA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Hi Cerezha,
    I have another question about foundationless..do you put one extra frame in the box(so if you use an 8 frame you'd put 9 or 10 frame you'd use 11). I read about this in Mike Bush's book..he says he shaves the ends down to 1-1/4(from 1-3/8). My nucs are coming tomorrow...I am putting them into an 8 frame hive. I'm putting one deep with foundationless frames with dowels for comb guides in the bottom box and then putting the frames from the nuc and remaining extra frames into the 2nd hive body. This was suggested by someone I have been following on the LetMeBee blog..he has had good success with this. So I guess I need to know if you or others who use foundationless frames put an extra frame in?...do you shave the frames down?, if you do shave them with what tool?, and if I can't get to this before tomorrow should I just put the standard number of frames for the 8 frame? Or just stick a 9th frame in without shaving the ends down and see what happens?..if Mike Bush is on this I would so appreciate a response. And I appreciate any other responses as well. Thanks, Halley

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    I'm using foundationless deep frames in my long hive. After a lot of research, I used triangular comb guides that come to a sharp point. These are cut to fit fairly tightly between the end bars, and secured to the frame with glue and a couple brads. I believe this is the best approach; it's the one used by most beekeepers for many decades after movable frame hives came into general use, but before foundation became available. It gives a lot more attachment surface than just the plain frame, because the bees attach the comb to both sides of the triangular guide, so about twice the attachment surface.

    To stabilize the comb for handling, I use monofilament fishing line strung through the middle holes.

    So far it's working great, and the bees are drawing out the frames perfectly.

    http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/...mar29hive1.jpg

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by Halley L. Hart View Post
    Hi Cerezha,
    I have another question about foundationless..... Halley
    Halley - Have deep respect to Mike Bush and really think that all his advises are really good. From another hand, in beekeeping, it is always that the same thing could be achieved using different ways... For my hives, I do not use thinner frames. My initial rationale was to have a slightly bigger space between frames (bees), so varroa will have a space to fell directly into my screened bottom. It is more difficult to achieve when bee-streets are more crowded... I think my approach is OK in So California because it is warm here. With your new nucs, I personally would just stay with conservative approach: move all nuc's frames (as they were in the nuc!) in the center of the box and surround them with foundationless frames. Close the box and leave them alone at least for 7-10 days. Let them to be at home. Watch them from outside (any pollen delivered?). If everything going well and bees building up the comb and there are three (or more) full frames with capped brood - than, I would gradually insert empty foundationless frame in the center of the nest. Let them build, add another one and sop on. I would not add 2nd box with empty foundationless frames - in my hands, it did not work well. My bees prefer gradual expansion. See, every person has its own approach! Good luck with your bees - post a pictures!!!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    ... I used triangular comb guides that come to a sharp point....
    To stabilize the comb for handling, I use monofilament fishing line strung through the middle holes.
    .... http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/...mar29hive1.jpg
    Beautiful comb! Great picture! Many thanks for sharing! Yes, I agree that triangle is probably the best guide. The reason, I am not using it is just technical - I do not have a table-saw (or other facility) to do 45 degree cut. Post more pictures to show people that foundation is not necessary! Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Winthrop, WA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    I see your point too, Cerezha...I don't have time anyway to shave all the ends. I got the idea of putting the 5 frames from the nuc in the 2nd/top deep box(and the remaining 3 foundationless)on top of the 1st deep with all foundationless frames from another beekeeper on the web. He does this with his swarms and apparently has had great success. However, our weather which has been great all week has suddenly turned rainy and colder(again). I am worried that the extra space below will chill them. So I may just go the conservative route and start in the bottom box and work upwards. As far as inserting the foundationless frames into the middle of the brood..what do you do with the frames on the end. I intend to insert one frame of honey from last year's hive. So essentially I'll be putting only 2 foundationless frames on the ends(8frame hive). When they get filled do you move them out, harvest them, move them up? What do you do with the frames with foundation...eventually they will reach the ends...? Thanks for any and all help.
    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Halley - Have deep respect to Mike Bush and really think that all his advises are really good. From another hand, in beekeeping, it is always that the same thing could be achieved using different ways... For my hives, I do not use thinner frames. My initial rationale was to have a slightly bigger space between frames (bees), so varroa will have a space to fell directly into my screened bottom. It is more difficult to achieve when bee-streets are more crowded... I think my approach is OK in So California because it is warm here. With your new nucs, I personally would just stay with conservative approach: move all nuc's frames (as they were in the nuc!) in the center of the box and surround them with foundationless frames. Close the box and leave them alone at least for 7-10 days. Let them to be at home. Watch them from outside (any pollen delivered?). If everything going well and bees building up the comb and there are three (or more) full frames with capped brood - than, I would gradually insert empty foundationless frame in the center of the nest. Let them build, add another one and sop on. I would not add 2nd box with empty foundationless frames - in my hands, it did not work well. My bees prefer gradual expansion. See, every person has its own approach! Good luck with your bees - post a pictures!!!

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by Halley L. Hart View Post
    ... I am worried that the extra space below will chill them...
    It is not only cold, they do not like a huge empty spaces, which sounded contradictory to what they have in nature (huge cavity?). I mean, when they are established, than, it may be OK, but for new bees in the new beehive - I would give them a little bit homier place. It is all about individual specifics. One of my beehives (vertical) ignored empty box for months and I was stupid enough to forgot what needs to be done - checkerboarding - put every other frame from the full box into the empty one and fill up the rest with empty frames. I learned, that I could add frames only gradually. But it does not matter that your bees are the same.

    As for honey management - if you wish to give them honey - put the honey frame in position 1 or 8 and add empty foundationless frames between honey and frames from the nuc. When all frames are drawn, and frames 1 & 8 partially full, it is time to decide what to do next. Basically, you have two options: (1) to keep bees in the one box or (2) expand the hive by adding a second box. #2 would be necessary if you have a really good flow and your bees are booming. If they are not - #1 would be conservative decision. If #1 - remove frame with honey from the side and add a frame in the center - you could do it many times. In #2 - you really need to consult with local people, how they do. I personally would do checkerboarding again if conditions are good for that.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  16. #116

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Rangarajan Sudarsan, Cody Thompson, Peter G. Kevan, Hermann J. Eberl (2012)
    Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees
    Journal of Theoretical Biology 295, 168-193.
    http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publ...netal-2011.pdf

  17. #117
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    ...Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees...[/url]
    Very long paper... I do not think, it is applicable to my situation: (1) screened bottom; (2) I recognize two layers of bees between frames - each for its own side of the frame. In paper they model bees as a porous plug completely blocking the whole space between frames. I do not think it is realistic approximation. I think, more proper way would be to model each frame as a surface with two "heating pads" attached and space between them... in such scenario, convectional component would be more noticeable. Again, the model did not count that in winter, the density of bees is much higher than in summer...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  18. #118

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    It is not only cold, they do not like a huge empty spaces, which sounded contradictory to what they have in nature (huge cavity?).
    What I wanted to say, before the computer crashed, is, that the study shows...I cite:
    (b) the routing of the flow at lower Tamb is seen to heat the air entering the beehive before it enters into the bee space. This heating up is enhanced by the vortices and counter current flow setup present in the space between the frames in brood chamber and the bottom board;

    And this is what many other beekeepers and myself do experience, that a space below the bottom and brood box is beneficial. Mustn't be a full box, but 8 cm height is enough to be beneficial.

    All other ends, the upper part, sides and so, they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Winthrop, WA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    So how do you set this space up...screened bottom board?QUOTE=BernhardHeuvel;918781]What I wanted to say, before the computer crashed, is, that the study shows...I cite:
    (b) the routing of the flow at lower Tamb is seen to heat the air entering the beehive before it enters into the bee space. This heating up is enhanced by the vortices and counter current flow setup present in the space between the frames in brood chamber and the bottom board;

    And this is what many other beekeepers and myself do experience, that a space below the bottom and brood box is beneficial. Mustn't be a full box, but 8 cm height is enough to be beneficial.

    All other ends, the upper part, sides and so, they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.[/QUOTE]

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    ...they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.
    Make sense. This 8 cm spacer has a name (forgot) and many beekeepers use it. It perfectly fits into natural hive design - vertical cavity with empty space at the bottom. As for air circulation- screened bottom could affect these patterns you were talking about. It would be interested to see a model how screened bottom affected the air circulation inside the hive. Again, screened bottoms are different. Mine, for instance, is double bottom - one screen than 1.5 cm gap and than solid board. In addition, the gap is closed from the entrance side. So, it means, that the opening for fresh air is small and it's opposed to the entrance. I have to admit that my bees never beard or show any other signs of discomfort from the heat or weather. I noticed, that when it is too cold (well, in California), bees created a "blanket" from their bodies and block the screen entirely. They are very smart! Similarly, they closed a top entrance with wax, when they decided they do not need it. It was opened for while...
    Серёжа, Sergey

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