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Top Bars "Pros and Cons" Presentation

21K views 57 replies 14 participants last post by  Mtedcarr4 
#1 ·
I am a first year beekeeper and a KTBH beekeeper. I was asked to share my experiences with KTBHs with my bee club.

I've included the link to the presentation so if you want to use it by all means, go ahead.

Most all of the clear pictures are of my hives and the ones which are not as sharp are ones I downloaded from the internet. There are mistakes I know, but I tried not to make many. Like the picture with the bread knife is stuck too far into the brace comb (I had to do this to hold the knife as I took the pictures myself).

I also brought in a new KTBH as a display model for people to handle. It was well received especially as there were only three of us in the entire club who had experience with KTBHs. I had never met these two guys before so it was nice to become contacts for each other. I had several people ask if they could come by my place and take a look...which I'm glad to oblige.

I used info from Michael Bush's website, so thank you sir for all your wonderful resources! I have my notes from the presentation, so if this would help someone, I'd be glad to share this as well.

Here's the link to the Prezi website where the presentation is accessible. Hope you like it; I had fun creating it...

http://prezi.com/zoktonzgoeze/kenya-top-bar-hive-ktbh/
 
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#7 ·
well because new beeks do dumb things. Very dumb things. because pesticide will never make it in my hive nope, Im all organic, and every flower in 50 miles has never seen pesticide. My point is TBH's are pollyanna specials. You think you're making some great leap to good organic blah blah blah, and you're really setting the bees up for more problems and harder management as well as making it harder for you the beekeeper to see any profit whatsoever. People will dump pkgs on foundation-less without feeding them thinking its a great idea, and one local here with a tbh didnt even take the cork out of the queen cage. It's noobie stuff, and noobies need to be aware with how fraught with disillusionment and disappointment the managing of one is. Now, since you pointed that out without actually knowing what I have and haven't done, steve, fact is I've run several log gums, all very spectacularly unsuccessfully. Now, if someone said Im going to run a small cell langstroth, Id say good genetics can give you all those benefits without all the trouble that small cell brings with it. Fact is, a well mated queen is going to have a fun time getting into small cell, but that's usually not a problem with commercial queens, as they aren't all as well bred.

As to it's fun to try new things, I agree, I have some hobby pigs that are never going to make me any money, but I enjoy watching them tear thru the dirt. I digress, sure if youre just doing one for the heck of it go to it, but as to the rest of that chem free mumbo jumbo, small cell top bar will not save you. Good genetics is the only solution there. And if you just have a couple the no treatment thing is probably going to disappoint. No treatment is good on a selection kill breeding platform, where you have say, 100 hives and want to kill 98 of them by not treating. Anyways, that's my .99 cents of opinion, experience, and disappointment with all of the above. Good luck!
 
#31 ·
... Im all organic, and every flower in 50 miles has never seen pesticide.
I look in the google maps - it looks like there are quite a bit of the farmland around your property. How you could claim that others do not use a pesticides, and bees did not bring it into your hives?
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Skinner+Apiaries&btnK=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
I also was not able to find your organic certification/credentials. Do you have a proof? Thing about this is that for commercial - claiming to be an "organic" is a responsibility, otherwise - a false statement.
Sergey
 
#10 ·
Beeks can do stupid things no matter what kind of hive we're using, and it's not only new beeks who make mistakes. I use TBHs, and am also into that "chem free mumbo jumbo," as you put it. There isn't one right way to keep bees, and I'm doing what works the best with my mindset and attitude toward bees.

You said good genetics is the only solution re: small cell top bar? Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying you are NOT working toward good genetics?
 
#11 ·
Im saying you're a hobbyist, and that cell size is a stop gap that successful vsh genetics has significantly reduced. If you like small cell so much, buy the embosser I have on the for sale section, only a grand. You can make all the small cell foundation you want. My point? Name a small cell migratory. Name ONE. Ok, let's try name one TBH guy that moves them. More than 50? no? I have selected for a few things, in this order, brood nest size, mite resistance, and gentleness. Ive done this with stock from COMMERCIAL outfits from across the entire continent. Of course, what do I know, since I dont run top bar hives, I must not have these silly framed papers on the wall with Dave Tarpy's name on them, nooo not at all. To each his own. But noobs need direction, and not direction that sets them up for disappointment. PS, chem free as you are youll find pesticide residue in your combs regardless, and with soft chems like thymol and formic, and essential oils, that point to not treat is pretty moot, residue wise. Subscribe to the ABJ if you havent there's good info on that sorta thing in there.
 
#13 ·
It's not main stream. It's a niche thing that takes you out of using similar gear and non-regressed bees that the rest of the commercial world uses. It sounds like its not a big deal, but it is. It severely limits your genetics you can buy and what you can run. I also highly endorse plastic foundation with loads and loads of extra wax. Reusable combs are the entire point. This unsupported stuff is usually very unstable and falls down, not to mention its limited to its ability to be extracted. I played with it some. I decided the VSH queens were a better angle. And after doing a selection and killing a lot of bees I can confidently say that better genetics will yield you all of the benefits of small cell, without the impracticality of it.
 
#14 ·
It seems to me that the disconnect here is that we are talking differences between a hobby beek who is having fun and beek who runs a larger apiary.

Ultimately we are arguing differences in opinions. I agree with both sides in a sense. I think running TBH and going chem free would be almost ridiculous for anyone actually running any kind of operation over just a handfull of hives... However I think it's a great idea to try if you are more interested in beekeeping as a hobby. I think it is important to have both sides b/c we can learn from each. It gives the wider beekeeping community greater perspectives and comparisons between the two and ultimately this helps us continue to learn more about tactics and methods to keeping bees.

Beekeeping has been done many different ways over the past... ohhhh couple thousands of years! So I dont think anyone should ever tell anyone else that a particular method is absolutely wrong, but it's certainly ok to express your opinions.... so yeah, I guess that is my opinion.
 
#16 ·
Skinner:

How can reusable combs be "the entire point"? And no one is saying you don't know anything, just that you have a totally different opinion. What do I care if I don't use "similar gear" and if I have "regressed bees [unlike] the rest of the commercial world uses."? Also, we can extract honey; we just do it differently than you do. I just don't understand how, if your genetics are so good, you feel the need to treat the heck out of your bees. Won't you be contributing to the development of resistances in the long run? I truly do want to understand this, and am not trying to be argumentative.
 
#23 ·
You select bees for a breeding program with no chemicals, and thereby kill a crap load of them to get breeders that you use II to cross in to their selves and repeat. If you kill less than 100 hives it's basically spitting in the wind as per Dr. Tarpy. I got kinda pissy with him about that fact, but he's right. So I killed 150 or so to get to my base genetics. do YOU want to kill 150 production hives? I didnt do it on purpose, inactive miticides, who knew. But a bunch of dead hives later, I have good selection and out crossing with good II stock, and crossing back in to secure a closer line to the original, outcrossed again and sold as well bred hybrids. Which, people seem to like. I'm telling you, that you can kick the mite can down the road, but you cannot do anything reliably on scale without treating. On top of which, if you cann thymol, that's THYME OIL and HBH (That's Lemongrass essential oil) is some bad chems, you should see what I started out with. Chem residue in comb is a problem, but you arent going to reduce it alot just by not treating. There's alot in incoming nectar. the studies are there. If you want to ignore them that's cool. Resistance is higher with some chems than others. Rotations help. We're just getting off of formic. Nasty stuff. No/low residue.
 
#17 ·
Some of us subscribe to the old motto, "First, do no harm." We want to raise bees, as well as grow our own foods, etc, that aren't completely laced with and/or dependent on chemicals. The dependence on chemicals is causing huge problems to the earth overall and our children and grandchildren down the line will have to deal with it.

Some people could care less and just want to make a buck and feed people contaminated honey and other foods, the earth and future generations be ****ed! They will call anything that doesn't fit into their "money is the only thing that matters" mentality "mumbo jumbo" because they can't see beyond their own bank accounts to the real costs of what they are introducing into the environment. Sounds alot like the Monsanto mentality.

Forgot to add, nice presentation, Jack.
 
#25 ·
See, I got a guy down the road mentioned my name, corn syrup, and honey in the same sentence. I put HBH in my syrup so its impossible to contaminate and not know. Needless to say, we forewent litigation because he dosent have anything, can't get blood out of a turnip, but I had a nice conversation with him. Attacking primary sources of income is a dangerous game, not saying you are, but you're blindly making that argument. For the third time, so you'll see it in this quote, there was a study recently, in the ABJ, there is pesticide in all honey. period. There are tolerance levels. It has nothing to do with your inputs to the hive. Its just out there. Being an operator of a farm and an apiary, I can say quite confidently, I use systemics and my bees dont die. My winter losses are below national averages. I find the majority of my losses are on old combs, which DO have pesticide residue. I do no use Comaphos or fluvatine, or traz. Not because they arent out there, but because I think the residue time on combs means I need to sell more nucs, and Id much rather build up.
 
#26 ·
Beeweavers are hot. They arent as unworkable as apis mellifera mellifera, but they're close. Im not going to say they're africanized, but they are fairly hot. My experience with them, and a couple other operators is similar. They are also kinda susceptible Foul brood. You want a good line get some Polline's. That's the best thing I've ever run.
 
#20 ·
Hello everybody
I am replying mainly to Skinner Apiaries comments. As an bee-hobbyst, I studied a lot about honey bees and to me it is obvious that commercial beekeeping in US is a huge fail. How you could call it a success, if bees population in US reduced by 50% in recent years. All this Varroa and other issue is a result of commercial (unwise in my opinion) approaches - more profit, more honey, less money spent on bees, ignorance of any research indicating the problems... Look at this forum - many talks how bees survived winter, many replaced bees/queens every season... is this may be considered a success? 50% success rate on global US scale? What really strikes me on this particular forum, is how people stuck to their personal/commercial dogmas of beekeeping and their ignorance to obvious very simple observations and facts (sorry, nothing personal). KTBs exists for perhaps 100 (I guess more) years in Kenya and brought to US as another attempt to improve bees well-doing in this country. Thousands people successfully used K/TBs and nevertheless, such great ignorance... I was literally accused in trolling in another thread where we discussed foundationless approach. Apparently, plastic P120 (whatever it is) is an answer to most of our problems! The fact that hundreds and hundreds people successfully used top bars was just considered to be a nuisance. Regarding pesticides -it was just hilarious - I guess, commercial bee-traditionalists united to fight with me rather to learn something new or useful from discussion. As a result they go so far, that "approved" the usage of pesticides... Take a look, it is good nighttime reading (long!):
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-please-explain-the-Foundationless-hype-to-me
Disclaimer: I am a bee-hobbyst who learns. My bees are treatment-free, I use top-bars, I do not re-use wax in beehive,my bees never eat syrup. My colonies are 3 years old and flourish. My colonies are survivors and commercial queens never visit us. And yes, I am a "novice" since my official (registered) beekeeping is just over 10 months. Sergey
 
#21 ·
I don't think Skinner meant to offend anyone, he just doesn't sugar coat his opinions like most people. That being said, some people like doing things in a more challenging way, so kudos for that as well. Cerezha, you kind of agreed with skinner too... you have survivor bees... aka good genetics which is what he was saying. I always find it amusing when people start bashing pesticides and commercial ag practices then go to the supermarket or wherever and then complain about all the fruits/veggies with bug holes in them and won't pay more than 20 cents for a head of lettuce. We have to produce food cheaply because it's what the majority of our population demands.
 
#24 · (Edited)
... Cerezha, you kind of agreed with skinner too... you have survivor bees... aka good genetics which is what he was saying.
I do not think so. My bees are doing well not because only "genetics". They do well, because I use a complex approach - I use top bars and let bees to use the space as they wish; I do not stress them moving 1000 miles every year; I left them enough honey and I provide to them a safe home. Skinner was talking about "traditional" management. I am against it since in my opinion it is not effective (based on statistics regarding decline in US bees population). My logic is: if "commercial" approach in beekeeping creates so many problems to bees, we need to explore other approaches. Who would do it? Commercial beekeepers (sorry for generalization - not you), see, they are talking about profit and how save couple of $$ on bees... they will continue to do their business in their way... From another side, we, bee-enthusiasts are open for experiments. We are trying different things, which may or may not benefit to bees. One day such "hobbyist" will create a new approach (and may be new bees), which revolutionized the whole industry. It was happened many times before (unfortunately not in bees area), it WILL happens again. Is this bad? Why we are under attack? In my opinion, it would be much smarter if "traditionalists" instead bullying us, will try to see the reasons behind our tries... and help by providing balanced thoughtful advise... I have a deep respect to Michael Bush - he is a real gem in this forum. Many thanks Mike, for your advises! Sergey
 
#22 ·
Many people who bash pesticides and commercial ag practices grow as much of their own food as possible and support local CSAs, cooperatives, farmers' markets, etc, and don't have a problem paying what real food is worth. What is funny to me is how few people really THINK about what they are putting into their bodies on a daily basis and how that affects them.
 
#28 ·
welp, come test my combs then. Id like to know what magically got in there I didnt put in there, other than probably asana xl, assail, carabyl and all those nasties. Because theres no checkmite, not traz, miteaway 1, I burned enough gear to make the collective non commercial forum cry. Youre ignoring what I said about what I use, or just dont have a clue. And this, is why I rarely wander from the commercial forum *sigh*
 
#30 ·
Wander back to where you came from, then. No one asked you to come over and bash TBHs.
Ever wonder why we don't benefit from a wealth of knowledge and experience? Here is your answer.

Ignorance is bliss!!
Only if you do not know you are ignorant. I do and will value experience (even contrary) over some one riding a tall horse.
 
#35 ·
The thread is the pros and cons. I see alot of cons. So no, I didnt wander into TBH land to bash anybody's outfit. However. To presume that I make statements without having knowledge or someone Ive talked to about a subject without knowledge would be foolish. My primary income is bees. I have tried alot of these 'gimmicks' and lost money and the bees suffered for it, so I'm pointing them out as what they are. To my point, noobs be ware, if it sounds too good to be true...
 
#40 ·
... The thread is the pros and cons. I see alot of cons.
Skinner
You did not present any single fact against or for KTB (main subject of this thread). You just presented your emotions, feelings in quite disrespectful to others (who is not with you) way. But, I would not change my opinion just because some stranger accused me to be an idiot... I need facts. What is your FACTS regarding KTB? How many KTBs you had; for how long? did you uncork queen cell for KTB? and so on. Present information, not emotions! See, you get on TBs territory - people on THIS TB forum are much more experienced in TB than you! If you smart - you could learn from others. Tell us what was the problem with YOUR TBs and may be, this forum could help you if you open for it. It is never too late to learn a new stuff. You indicated that you are 5 years in beekeeping. I do not think, it gives you a big credit - there are people on this forum with 30+ years experience and they are much less opinionated than you. It is my understanding that the best beekeeper's wisdom is that there is no a single solution in beekeeping. Sergey
 
#38 ·
"Being an operator of a farm and an apiary, I can say quite confidently, I use systemics and my bees dont die."

There are sub-lethal effects. If you're reading the literature, you know this. Just because your bees don't die does not mean that systemics aren't harmful to both the bees and society at large.
 
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