Top Bars "Pros and Cons" Presentation

[JRG13]

I don't think Skinner meant to offend anyone, he just doesn't sugar coat his opinions like most people. That being said, some people like doing things in a more challenging way, so kudos for that as well. Cerezha, you kind of agreed with skinner too... you have survivor bees... aka good genetics which is what he was saying. I always find it amusing when people start bashing pesticides and commercial ag practices then go to the supermarket or wherever and then complain about all the fruits/veggies with bug holes in them and won't pay more than 20 cents for a head of lettuce. We have to produce food cheaply because it's what the majority of our population demands.

[SantaFeBeek]

Many people who bash pesticides and commercial ag practices grow as much of their own food as possible and support local CSAs, cooperatives, farmers' markets, etc, and don't have a problem paying what real food is worth. What is funny to me is how few people really THINK about what they are putting into their bodies on a daily basis and how that affects them.

[Skinner Apiaries]

Skinner:

How can reusable combs be "the entire point"? And no one is saying you don't know anything, just that you have a totally different opinion. What do I care if I don't use "similar gear" and if I have "regressed bees [unlike] the rest of the commercial world uses."? Also, we can extract honey; we just do it differently than you do. I just don't understand how, if your genetics are so good, you feel the need to treat the heck out of your bees. Won't you be contributing to the development of resistances in the long run? I truly do want to understand this, and am not trying to be argumentative.

You select bees for a breeding program with no chemicals, and thereby kill a crap load of them to get breeders that you use II to cross in to their selves and repeat. If you kill less than 100 hives it's basically spitting in the wind as per Dr. Tarpy. I got kinda pissy with him about that fact, but he's right. So I killed 150 or so to get to my base genetics. do YOU want to kill 150 production hives? I didnt do it on purpose, inactive miticides, who knew. But a bunch of dead hives later, I have good selection and out crossing with good II stock, and crossing back in to secure a closer line to the original, outcrossed again and sold as well bred hybrids. Which, people seem to like. I'm telling you, that you can kick the mite can down the road, but you cannot do anything reliably on scale without treating. On top of which, if you cann thymol, that's THYME OIL and HBH (That's Lemongrass essential oil) is some bad chems, you should see what I started out with. Chem residue in comb is a problem, but you arent going to reduce it alot just by not treating. There's alot in incoming nectar. the studies are there. If you want to ignore them that's cool. Resistance is higher with some chems than others. Rotations help. We're just getting off of formic. Nasty stuff. No/low residue.

[cerezha]

... Cerezha, you kind of agreed with skinner too... you have survivor bees... aka good genetics which is what he was saying.

I do not think so. My bees are doing well not because only "genetics". They do well, because I use a complex approach - I use top bars and let bees to use the space as they wish; I do not stress them moving 1000 miles every year; I left them enough honey and I provide to them a safe home. Skinner was talking about "traditional" management. I am against it since in my opinion it is not effective (based on statistics regarding decline in US bees population). My logic is: if "commercial" approach in beekeeping creates so many problems to bees, we need to explore other approaches. Who would do it? Commercial beekeepers (sorry for generalization - not you), see, they are talking about profit and how save couple of $$ on bees... they will continue to do their business in their way... From another side, we, bee-enthusiasts are open for experiments. We are trying different things, which may or may not benefit to bees. One day such "hobbyist" will create a new approach (and may be new bees), which revolutionized the whole industry. It was happened many times before (unfortunately not in bees area), it WILL happens again. Is this bad? Why we are under attack? In my opinion, it would be much smarter if "traditionalists" instead bullying us, will try to see the reasons behind our tries... and help by providing balanced thoughtful advise... I have a deep respect to Michael Bush - he is a real gem in this forum. Many thanks Mike, for your advises! Sergey

[Skinner Apiaries]

See, I got a guy down the road mentioned my name, corn syrup, and honey in the same sentence. I put HBH in my syrup so its impossible to contaminate and not know. Needless to say, we forewent litigation because he dosent have anything, can't get blood out of a turnip, but I had a nice conversation with him. Attacking primary sources of income is a dangerous game, not saying you are, but you're blindly making that argument. For the third time, so you'll see it in this quote, there was a study recently, in the ABJ, there is pesticide in all honey. period. There are tolerance levels. It has nothing to do with your inputs to the hive. Its just out there. Being an operator of a farm and an apiary, I can say quite confidently, I use systemics and my bees dont die. My winter losses are below national averages. I find the majority of my losses are on old combs, which DO have pesticide residue. I do no use Comaphos or fluvatine, or traz. Not because they arent out there, but because I think the residue time on combs means I need to sell more nucs, and Id much rather build up.

Some of us subscribe to the old motto, "First, do no harm." We want to raise bees, as well as grow our own foods, etc, that aren't completely laced with and/or dependent on chemicals. The dependence on chemicals is causing huge problems to the earth overall and our children and grandchildren down the line will have to deal with it.

Some people could care less and just want to make a buck and feed people contaminated honey and other foods, the earth and future generations be damned! They will call anything that doesn't fit into their "money is the only thing that matters" mentality "mumbo jumbo" because they can't see beyond their own bank accounts to the real costs of what they are introducing into the environment. Sounds alot like the Monsanto mentality.

Forgot to add, nice presentation, Jack.

[Skinner Apiaries]

Beeweavers are hot. They arent as unworkable as apis mellifera mellifera, but they're close. Im not going to say they're africanized, but they are fairly hot. My experience with them, and a couple other operators is similar. They are also kinda susceptible Foul brood. You want a good line get some Polline's. That's the best thing I've ever run.

I may be just another tree-hugger, but I'm committed to a lifestyle as green as I can have it. I want the same for my bees.

BeeWeaver Apiaries has been chemical-free for ten years now, and they're not just hobbyists.

Very well said, SantaFeBeek. Thank you.

[SantaFeBeek]

Chem residue in comb is a problem, but you arent going to reduce it alot just by not treating. There's alot in incoming nectar. the studies are there. If you want to ignore them that's cool.

The studies show that the majority of chemicals in the comb are from treatment, not incoming nectar. If you want to ignore that, that's cool, too.

[Skinner Apiaries]

welp, come test my combs then. Id like to know what magically got in there I didnt put in there, other than probably asana xl, assail, carabyl and all those nasties. Because theres no checkmite, not traz, miteaway 1, I burned enough gear to make the collective non commercial forum cry. Youre ignoring what I said about what I use, or just dont have a clue. And this, is why I rarely wander from the commercial forum *sigh*

[SantaFeBeek]

Wow. this must be so exhausting for you...poor thing. Wander back to where you came from, then. No one asked you to come over and bash TBHs. Ignorance is bliss!!

[RiodeLobo]

Wander back to where you came from, then. No one asked you to come over and bash TBHs.

Ever wonder why we don't benefit from a wealth of knowledge and experience? Here is your answer.

Ignorance is bliss!!

Only if you do not know you are ignorant. I do and will value experience (even contrary) over some one riding a tall horse.

[cerezha]

... Im all organic, and every flower in 50 miles has never seen pesticide.

I look in the google maps - it looks like there are quite a bit of the farmland around your property. How you could claim that others do not use a pesticides, and bees did not bring it into your hives?
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=...-8&sa=N&tab=wl
I also was not able to find your organic certification/credentials. Do you have a proof? Thing about this is that for commercial - claiming to be an "organic" is a responsibility, otherwise - a false statement.
Sergey

[SantaFeBeek]

Ever wonder why we don't benefit from a wealth of knowledge and experience? Here is your answer.

Yes, has nothing to do with bullying people into thinking that your way is the only way and that trying new things is a waste of time, huh? Makes total sense!

[RiodeLobo]

Sergey, not to speak for Skinner, but that is not how I read that comment. It was an indication of the foolish thoughts of us noobs.

[RiodeLobo]

Yes, has nothing to do with bullying people into thinking that your way is the only way and that trying new things is a waste of time, huh? Makes total sense!

He was not the one telling people to shut up and leave because he did not like your opinion or point of view.
Hello Mr. Pot.

[Skinner Apiaries]

The thread is the pros and cons. I see alot of cons. So no, I didnt wander into TBH land to bash anybody's outfit. However. To presume that I make statements without having knowledge or someone Ive talked to about a subject without knowledge would be foolish. My primary income is bees. I have tried alot of these 'gimmicks' and lost money and the bees suffered for it, so I'm pointing them out as what they are. To my point, noobs be ware, if it sounds too good to be true...

[SantaFeBeek]

He was not the one telling people to shut up and leave because he did not like your opinion or point of view.
Hello Mr. Pot.

Just the one complaining about how tiresome it is to have anyone disagree with his all-knowing self.

[Tom Brueggen]

...People will dump pkgs on foundation-less without feeding them thinking its a great idea, and one local here with a tbh didnt even take the cork out of the queen cage.

Sounds like your friend is an idiot. I imagine if he had a Lang hive he still would have forgotten to unplug the queen cage. Maybe you should reevaluate that friendship It's at this point that you lost all credibility in this argument. Not to discredit your experience, as I'm sure it's more than mine, but every argument has it's place, and mostly here I just see a bunch of non-relevant arguments.

Here's my two cents: I read about beekeeping for 8 months before getting bees. Right off the bat I knew I wanted to start with something natural, and that I needed chemical free bees. Enter Beeweaver. Someone else mentioned it, but they've got my endorsement as well. My bees are doing great.

I started with TBH's because I wanted to be as natural as possible. Not for any green hippie beliefs, just because I honestly believe that centuries of evolution cannot be changed by a few decades of research with chemicals. The idea of letting the bees do what they believe was right appealed to me, so go foundationless. The cheapness appealed to me too, as I built my first TBH from scraps in the garage.

After committing to TBH, and working with them for a few months, I've quickly observed some faults. But I still appreciate the more natural appeal. My next venture will be on a foundationless Lang.

I've already acknowledged that is I were to go into commercial honey production or migratory pollination that I would have to go full Lang. But until that time comes, I'll continue to approach everything with an open mind. And by God, if I have to, I'll learn from my mistakes along the way. But anyone that flies off the handle and goes on one-sided rants on a public forum (that until now I really appreciated for a lack of such rants) will earn zero points in my book. The beekeeping community is a rare on indeed, where I've seen only generosity and helpfulness. Come on Skinner, don't ruin it. With all due respect, I've learned a lot about beekeeping in my three months of experience, and the number one thing I've learned, is that sometimes it's best to learn for ourselves, and not just follow blindly when told what to do. After all, our government tries to tell us all what's best every day, and almost always without fail, we argue back.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. But please everyone, be considerate of other opinions and beliefs before flying off on tangents on the forums. I'm out!

[SantaFeBeek]

"Being an operator of a farm and an apiary, I can say quite confidently, I use systemics and my bees dont die."

There are sub-lethal effects. If you're reading the literature, you know this. Just because your bees don't die does not mean that systemics aren't harmful to both the bees and society at large.

[cerezha]

Sergey, not to speak for Skinner, but that is not how I read that comment. It was an indication of the foolish thoughts of us noobs.

sure
I was trying to make a sense (for myself) from what he was saying... I always do and usually got punishment for my intentions...

[cerezha]

... The thread is the pros and cons. I see alot of cons.

Skinner
You did not present any single fact against or for KTB (main subject of this thread). You just presented your emotions, feelings in quite disrespectful to others (who is not with you) way. But, I would not change my opinion just because some stranger accused me to be an idiot... I need facts. What is your FACTS regarding KTB? How many KTBs you had; for how long? did you uncork queen cell for KTB? and so on. Present information, not emotions! See, you get on TBs territory - people on THIS TB forum are much more experienced in TB than you! If you smart - you could learn from others. Tell us what was the problem with YOUR TBs and may be, this forum could help you if you open for it. It is never too late to learn a new stuff. You indicated that you are 5 years in beekeeping. I do not think, it gives you a big credit - there are people on this forum with 30+ years experience and they are much less opinionated than you. It is my understanding that the best beekeeper's wisdom is that there is no a single solution in beekeeping. Sergey