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Bars Collapsed in Record Heat

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collapse heat
10K views 34 replies 17 participants last post by  RAFAEL/PR 
#1 ·
What a mess.

I was overdue in an inspection to see if there was evidence of a new queen (I lost mine a few weeks ago). Yesterday, we had record high heat of 109F. Today, it will be 104F.

I inspected the hive this morning when it was 86F. Two bars of honeycomb were in a heap on the hive floor. I scooped it out as best as I could. I took some home, and left more then half in a bowl next to the hive.

Scooping out handfuls of comb was interesting. My gloved hands were covered with bees who were none too happy about getting robbed. I could feel their vibrations through the leather.

I was unable to complete the inspection (I didn't want to stress them out too much) so I put the hive back together and left. I still don't know if the hive is queenright.


My questions:

1) Was leaving honeycomb in a bowl the right thing to do (so they can reclaim the honey) or will it invite robbers?

2) My hive is in full sun. I was following advice that full sun deters mites. I was not counting on Central Texas burning off the face of the earth. The roof is wood and it has aluminum roofing material on top of it. What other material should I add, either to the top or bottom of the roof to cool it down?

3) Will I ever find evidence of my queen? Will I ever learn to light my smoker? ---Okay, you don't have to answer #3.

I have the roof propped up on one side and there is water under the hive. Some things I have learned. I should never perform an inspection in extreme heat (I'm glad I didn't attempt that yesterday), and it's probably a good idea to always check the hive after a day of extreme heat.
 
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#2 ·
1.Leaving the honeycomb in a bowl near the hive was a mistake but you already know that.

2.I use some scrap insulation board on top of mine.At the very least a plywood shade board would help.I am not totally convinced that full sun means full Texas or Florida sun.

3.Yes,you will eventually find your queen or evidence of her presence and no,you will never learn to keep your smoker lit.
 
#7 ·
This is indeed what many people think would solve all problems with TBH but it is a very harsh measure your advocating! When making top bars, drilling three 3/8 holes thru them vertically and put dowells down short of the bottom or sides of your tbh. The bees will encorporate them in their comb and they will support them.
 
#12 ·
Put it at the back of the hive and let them clean it up for a day or two or three, then pull it out when it's empty. They may try to build around it, but not much will happen over the course of a few days. I do it all the time with burr comb or pieces of double comb on one bar, etc. You don't have to leave it in a bowl, either, just prop it up against the back so that they can get to both sides and they'll do the rest. They will clean up any spillage, as well.

Whether you should depends on how much stores they have. If they have plenty, take it inside and enjoy it yourself. If they need it, give it to them.

Good luck!
 
#14 ·
Well, I think i did everything wrong. I should have just left it all in a heap. I thought I was doing them a favor.

I wound up taking bringing the bowl home. My husband had the bee suit and I didn't want to open it up without one. Next time, I'll leave it alone.

There was a hive beetle in the bowl. i don't know if I scooped it out of my box, or if it found the honey during the hours it was beside the hive.

So, Vance, I'm confused about the placement of the three holes. Is it three holes on one side or both? I assume you're talking about the long sides, not the front/back sides. Is that right?

Even if I incorporated the wax into the holes, won't i just destroy that brace every time I open the hive and pull up the bars that have wax in the holes?

I don't understand this at all "put dowells down short of the bottom or sides of your tbh."

Also, since I obviously don't want to drill in an active hive, should I drill holes in the empty hive (I have one without bees yet) and switch it with the active hive? Is this even possible? Could I take the empty hive to the bees and transfer the bars into the new hives and bring the old hive home?

Thanks.
 
#17 ·
Interesting.... I don't do TBHs but I think that I can tell what the problem is. I have standard Langstroth hives and have observed many natural ( feral ) hives over the years. The ferals can produce huge vertical combs with no problem. We occasionally have temps up to 114F and have never seen one collapse.

So why did yours fail... Perhaps your center to center spacing is too wide. If wider than nature intended then the comb becomes too fat and gets very heavy. Feral combs are rather precisely spaced ( but I don't know what that spacing is ) and are never excessively fat. In a Langstroth hive, the spacing is also rather precise and not too fat unless someone chooses to eliminate a frame.

Maybe your top bars need to be shaved and pushed closer together ?

Just me thinking out loud -- Fuzzy
 
#19 ·
Hey Kat,

Looking at the hive design on that website, I would definitely put a couple of 2x4s or something between the top bars and the roof. It looks like that roof sits directly on the bars and would transfer heat to them pretty effectively. Make a little space between them for airflow during the warmer months and you probably won't have that problem in the future.
 
#20 ·
Yes, I just built a second roof to put on top of the other roof. The second roof has 2x4s nailed into some plywood that I painted white. So I'll have a cushion of air between the two roofs. What do you think of that?

I could also wrap the white roof with foil, but I don't know how much more that would help.
 
#25 ·
I'd recommend (and am planning on) building a short shading structure over my hives. Granted this won't work in a large outyard, or at least it would be inefficient in that situation, but so would TBH's. Just build something like a canopy and stretch shade cloth over it. The shade cloth should give you a pretty good temperature reduction. Just like standing under a shade tree. On that note, my hives currently sit in almost full shade all day. No comb collapse problems yet!

Now for an engineering blurb, recall that heat transfer occurs in three ways: conduction, convection, and radiation. Radiation is traveling by waves, so how we get heat from the sun. Conduction is through a conductive body, like a steel rod. Even the most insulated materials are conductive. So simply laying a piece of insulation on top of your hive really may not do much good. It may actually make it harder for the bees to cool the hive. Your best bet in the summer heat is to block the radiation. If you had a laser thermometer, it would be interesting to take a temp reading on the face of your hive where the sun hits it, and then you could figure up the heat transfer coefficients to know how much of that is transferring into your hive. Blocking the radiation of the sun cuts your maximum temp down to only what the air temp is (109 deg. F). Beeswax melts at 144-147 F.

I haven't tried it yet, but I am confident (possibly naive) that by hanging a shade cloth a few feet above my hives, I will have no comb collapse issues, at least none that are not provoked by something beyond heat, like shaking the hive. If all else fails I guess you'll just have to rig up some air conditioning for the hives.
 
#26 ·
"...I am confident (possibly naive) that by hanging a shade cloth a few feet above my hives, I will have no comb collapse issues..."

Thermodynamics is appropriate to consider, but don't forget your strength of materials coursework in the process. The width, depth, thickness, and weight of the comb will also affect the tendency for collapse, all other things being equal.
 
#28 ·
Thermodynamics is appropriate to consider, but don't forget your strength of materials coursework in the process. The width, depth, thickness, and weight of the comb will also affect the tendency for collapse, all other things being equal.
Touche Deeanna,
Yeah I totally dismissed tensile strength and elastic modulus properties. I was trying to do a quick google search just for grins to find those values. We do a little poking around, I'm thinking we're going to solve every TBH problem. Then we'll move on to saving the World.:rolleyes:

I really like the idea mentioned above of putting the dowel through the top bars. But the more work that goes into constructing a top bar hive to solve "problems" it seems, the more it starts to look like a Lang. Don't get me wrong, I have 4 TBH's, and no Langs. It seems I often times think up what I feel would be great idea for my TBH, and then I realize that the same concept has already be incorporated into a Lang. Oh well, I digress.
 
#27 ·
"Where in the Silicon Valley do you live? I used to live in San Jose. Of course, there are many micro-climates out there, but I never saw it get that hot."

I live just on the edge of Los Gatos in Campbell. It doesn't usually get that hot but a few years ago we had 4 consecutive days of 110+ temps. That followed a winter with 4-6 consecutive days with lows of 17-19F. It's been relatively mild since.

Fuzzy
 
#30 ·
I had a frame collapse today, partly because of heat and partly because of some burr comb that the bees attached to another frame, so when I went to pull the frame the comb went to the bottom of the hive. The frame contained some capped honey, nectar, and some pollen. I separated the honey & nectar. Then I crushed that comb and strained out around a pint of honey. I whipped it with an electric mixer and put it in the fridge, I figure it will be gone in less than a week once my kids get into it. I had a question about the remainder. Can I freeze the pollen and put it in bottom of the hive in the spring? Same with the left over wax/honey mixture? Seems like it would be a cheap and easy way to feed the bees in the spring.
 
#31 ·
After I crush any comb I always give it back to the bees to clean up. Mine don't really seem interested in the wax or pollen, but they'll retrieve honey off of it. Once they pick through it for a day or two you can take it to melt down or toss it if you have no use (shame). I suppose it doesn't hurt to offer the bee bread back to them, I just don't know if they'll take it or not.
 
#34 ·
After I crush any comb .. it doesn't hurt to offer the bee bread back to them...
I'm not entirely sure I know what the bee bread looks like. In the pile that I scooped out of the bottom, I could clearly identify the wax and honey (or course!) but there was also some very dark wax that you could chew on and it tasted like honey, but it was obviously not waxy. Instead of spitting out a chewy wax, you'd spit out some chewy, grainy dark stuff.

Sorry if that's gross, I just don't know how else to explain it.

So, is that the bee bread?
 
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