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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,506

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I was afraid that question was going to come up. I haven't gotten that far yet. I think I'll simply drill two small holes in the flange about 10" apart and nail it down into the bottom bar. Anyone have a faster way of attaching it?
    Regards, Barry

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Small nails? Big staples? Silicone? Epoxy?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I noticed the ladder comb between two mediums w/ PF 120s just this morning when I tried prying off the top body with the hive tool. I'm glad I keep a carving knife in the beekeeping bucket otherwise I doubt I would have been able to twist it off.

    Then I had to scrape off the ladder/burr comb from the PF 120s.

    You can feel the PF120s 'give' when you work them with the hive tool.

    Barry, are you still glad you ordered them?

    I put some foundationless frames between the drawn PF 120s to see if they draw out the comb 'regressed' or not.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,648

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Anyone have a faster way of attaching it?
    Hot glue gun. I have HSC held in wooden frames by hot glue.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I've taken to only prying between the end bars. It's about the only strong part of the frame.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    674

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Barry you might also try using one foundation support pin through the end bars on each side at the bottom to hold the foundation tight
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA
    Posts
    1,693

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Barry,
    Why are you cutting them to fit, instead of just purchasing foundation? Also, did the frames/foundation have any warpage upon arrival?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    There is currently no 'small cell' foundation available in plastic. Back in the early '00s when I started, Dadant came out with some, but it had very shallow cell walls and was almost universally rejected by the bees. In comparison, I have only had one PF frame misdrawn thus far, out of about 300 that I own. Probably about 200 currently in hives.

    I haven't seen much warpage on delivery, but I have seen a little develop later on. Barry will have to comment on his experience, but the pictures look pretty straight.

    Also, I recommend against black. If you leave it in the sun for just a few minutes, it will get hot enough to melt the wax.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Clark county, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    220

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Barry, did you find a good way to attach it yet?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,506

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Benjamin, as far as I know, the Mann Lake plastic SC does not come in foundation only. Otherwise I would have ordered it for sure.

    oblib, I've put this project away till winter since it's too late to use this year. I'm leaning towards either drilling two small holes in the bottom flange spaced 10" apart and using brads to fasten to bottom bar or trying the hot glue method.
    Regards, Barry

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Clark county, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    220

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I was leaning toward the hot glue but was hoping you had already tried a method or two

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
    Posts
    804

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Hi Guys

    This year is my first experience with PF-100s, although I've worked lots of commercial hives with other plastic frame brands.

    The plastic material in the end bars is very thin and won't take much compression without crumpling. So, squeezing that last frame into a tight space will damage it. It's a common practice with propolis on wood frames.

    Posted my thoughts on PF-100s at:
    http://talkingstick.me/bees/mann-lak...lastic-frames/

    Regards - Dennis
    Last edited by Barry; 02-08-2014 at 11:29 AM. Reason: update link
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glen Arm,MD
    Posts
    191

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    i'm a first year beek and i have these frames. my bees seem to like them. my only complaint is the openings in the ends. bees get in them when i am removing frames. when i reinsert the frames they trapped in the openigs and die.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Litchfield, CT, USA
    Posts
    430

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I have a couple dozen PF's and for the life of me can't get the bees to take to it. They crawl all over it but never build comb. I don't like the plastic frames either. They seem flimsy to me so I like your idea Barry. Maybe I need to paint them with some thicker wax.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I checkerboaded PF 120s and foundationless frames in a foundationles hive. Now, they've built in the PF 120s only and not the new foundationless frames.

    It's been a dearth, and I'll be putting a feeder box on the hives shortly, but I was surprised.

    By the way, I did see alot of DWV, and lost a bunch of nucs w/ the exception of one. No feeding or treatments.

    The survivor is in a deep, and I'm going to baby it through for next spring.

    It can get really hot on the roof, and quite frankly, while spring looked good, July and August knocked the heck out of em.

    However, I am going to bring the survivors through on Ritecell.

    Call it a hunch, but I like the way it performed. I will still keep working on the small cell/ foundationless in the meantime.

    By the way. I've killed alot of bees trying this out.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I've got a bunch of these in my new hive, the bees do ok on them but I'm thinking of trying small cell foundation from Mann Lake to see how that goes. If anything, I will do as Barry has and chop the edges off and use wood frames. I got stung last time cuz a bee got in the recess and I put my finger over her and pulling on flexing plastic frames cuz it was bridged at the bottom was a pain.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    674

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I purchased 8-10 cases of PF-100 and PF120's, mainly because it was an inexpensive way to go compared to assembling my own wood frames like I normally do. I also wanted to try out some small cell frames. My bees tend to draw it out equally compared to other plastic cell foundation. I almost always coat on some of my additional melted wax to get them on the plastic quicker. Like any other type of foundation they will draw it out when they are ready to, based on the nectar flow. The problem for me is that the gap space between the bottom bar of one frame and the top bar of the next box. Someone posted that because of the size of the plastic top bar the bees tend to draw out bridge comb and ladder comb in this space. This presents a major problem when manipulating colonies, removing supers and putting the hives back together. You either have to take the time to scrape the wax and honey comb off the top and bottom bars or risk killing lots of bees setting the boxes back together. For me anyways my bees never wax-out that space between the supers with wood frames and plastic foundation. Perhaps this is a design flaw that Mann lake might look at, (i'm sure this is not just happening to me.) If it were just my honey supers it would not be a big deal but I used it a lot in my deep brood boxes and it ends up being quite a mess, in many cases. For me its back to all wood. I'm not a huge fan of plastic frames.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Michael Bush has some views on why that is. He says it's partly because of the thickness of the topbar and partly because the plastic frame gives no opportunity for drone comb. It is a downside.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    Ben,

    I pulled a few undrawn ones out, one sat in my car, it bowed slightly, the comb section did, but I wouldn't say it's not usable anymore or anything though.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    674

    Default Re: PH120 foundation

    I had Michael Bush in my beeyard in July and we discussed it. I'm not so sure it concerns drone comb sizing though. Its much more of a spacing issue and related burr comb issue because of the frame size and construction. The simple solution would be for Mann Lake to just start selling their PF small cell foundation in sheets to install in wood frames right Barry..If I remember this weekend i'll bring my camera along and take a few pictures of this issue.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

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