Why are my bees not using the bottom box?

[Redhead]

Why would my bees not use my bottom box? They completely bypass the first box. Litterally NO BEES in the lower box. Just from looking at the second box you'd think the hive was ready for a third box. Lots of bees.

The lower frames are relatively empty of honey. There is a good amount of pollen. The bottom of the cells that are empty appear shiney almost shellacked. I've been trying to build it back from swarming earlier this spring.

[Batman]

Ususally when I have this happen, it's coming out of winter. The bees move in to the second hive body, but for some reason refuse to go back down. I've even had a colony swarm that had an empty drawn out set of frames right below them. Try reversing the hive bodies and they should have no problem putting that other one to use.

C2

[Dubuquer]

I've got a similar situation here in GA. Running double deeps on both my hives and the top deep is full but very little activity in the bottom box. So the best solution is to switch the boxes at this time of year rather than wait until spring?

[scrapiron]

Switch em.

[wcubed]

Some colonies are more sensitive to the break in functional comb of the Langstroth hive box joints of about 1 1/2 inches with wood frames. Colony instincts are built around the continuous comb, top to bottom, of the wild cavity. Under some circumstances, some balk at jumping the gap - more prevalent in downward than upward growth.

On the continuous comb of the wild nest, storing of pollen below the brood is natural. In the spring, when pollen is plentiful, and the broodnest is growing upward, pollen is stored at the bottom. It's long term pollen and pickled by fermentation for use later in the season. In early fall/late summer that long term pollen is used for building young bees for wintering. (Field pollen is scarce at that time.) In the Lang double deep, that pollen reserve often does not get stored. The colony 'wants' to use the whole deep for brood. Your bees are smarter than most, but they will pay a penalty later. They are now preparing the upper deep for wintering. As the pollen reserve is consumed in August for the fall buildup, they are not likely to move the brood nest down into the lower. They cheat themselves out of the upper deep of honey for winter rations.

Mid-summer reversal of the deeps is one answer. The colony pollen reserve overhead is still in reach and available. With a good fall flow, they can refill the now upper deep with honey and winter well. But not guaranteed in all areas.

It was this set of circumstances that pushed me into the pollen box maneuver in early spring. With a reliable pollen reserve, fall preps and wintering are greatly improved. That part of my full-season management has met considerable resistance, but it is 5 minutes well spent. Described in some detail in aticles available in Point of View, this site.

More than you wanted to know I'm sure, but you did ask "why?"

Walt

[Redhead]

More than you wanted to know I'm sure, but you did ask "why?"

Walt

Are you kidding?? I did ask why, and I'm sure I still don't know enough. Thank you all for enlightening me!

[madrona]

My bees also don't use their lower box. I assume that they have their reasons, so I just go along with their decision. I add new boxes on top as needed, as if the bottom box weren't part of the setup at all. It means some extra woodenware, but if that's how they want their house to be, I'm not going to argue with them.

[Nanook]

Walt where is this point of view found ?...Thanks for the info on the pollen..I'd like to read more about it..

[Roland]

because they think they do not need the space. That is why we use one deep and move frames, but that is another friendly ongoing debate between Wcubed and I.


Crazy Roland

[wcubed]

Nanook,
Go to beesource home page. Point of view is on a list of options on the left side. (Last time I looked) Scroll to the bottom - listed alphabetically.
Walt

[Nanook]

Walt,
Found it thanks...I thought the forum page was the home page...Thanks, lots of information to read there....

[Daniel Y]

I did a full inspection of my hive last Sunday. I found the same thing. The hive is a 5 frame nuc that was installed in a 10 frame deep the 14th of last month. After approx 14 days or so a second deep was added and the bees took to drawing it out fairly quickly. Although I was watching the upper deep closely. probably to closely. I did not disturb the lower deep for a month.I also added a med super to the hive after the second super was fairly well drawn out.

Once the super was added the bees seemed to stall. they have shown no interest in moving up further. Brood has been good in the upper deep but drawing out comb has slowed.

Upon looking into the lower deep I found it largely unused. not a lot of honey. several completely empty frames but considerably more pollen being stored in this box than the others. In total there are 9 plus frames of brood int eh hive that are typical. brood in the middle surrounded by nectar and pollen. BTU there are not many frames of just honey. 4 frames of honey according to my count in the entire hive. not counting what surrounds brood. I am thinking of waiting until I know there is a strong flow and then switching the lower deeps. a largely empty box was not exactly what I had hoped to find down there.

For now I am thinking my hive size has simply outpaced by bee population and there will be a pause as more brood emerges

Mainly am I on the right track with my thinking?

[wcubed]

D Y
If the "right track" ? was directed to me, you are aware that I'm not a big fan of jerking them around. I avoid brood nest disturbance when it slows them down. In this case of reversal, we are just repositioning the complete brood nest. Not a slowdown shake up.

Your bees are likely in the summer broodnest reduction period - conserving stores on hand. Less brood and population, stores last longer, and inactive bees don't eat much.
Don't think you have to wait for evidence of a positive flow.

I avoid all this hockey puck by using a single deep hive body and the rest of the boxes are shallow supers. The bees much prefer to rear brood in a deep than shallows. Has to do with a comfortable nest size without spanning an interbox gap for the winter cluster.
(Two shallows hold almost exactly the same amount of honey as a second deep.) Brood is maintained in the basic deep for the full year. And I get better flexibility for checkerboarding in late winter.

Walt

[Acebird]

Walt, if you let them connect the top frames to the bottom frames with burr comb there is no gap.

[wcubed]

Ace
Are you forgetting the verticle thickness of the top and bottom bars? If you maintain accurate bee space between frames, you get very little comb between frames. If you get cordwood drone brood between frames, you have a mismatch between box and frame dimensions.
Walt

[Acebird]

Ace
Are you forgetting the verticle thickness of the top and bottom bars?

I don't think bees are that picky. Having mostly supers last year the bees jumped across four boxes to put brood in the fifth box on top. I don't feel managed hives would be too successful if top and bottom bars impeded their progress.

[Daniel Y]

I am still not sure I have my question answered. Mainly I am wondering if the brood being in the upper deep is a problem this time of year. IF so what should I do. Otherwise the bees are doing fine except they don't want to touch that med super. I have read other threads in regard to that and have two thoughts on it.

One other have simply had problems getting bees to use med supers. they have had to place frames of deep comb in them to get the bees started. Not exactly sure how that are doing that.

I know for me if the bees are going to have that much of an issue with med I won't be using them. I will just add another deep put the sugar water back on for 3 days and get them started.

The bees have gone from 5 frames to 30 and 2 frames of brood to nearly 10 in 6 weeks. I am wondering if they are not struggling to just keep up right now.

[Vance G]

Just out of curiosity do you have a screened bottom board? I bet you do.

[Acebird]

I know for me if the bees are going to have that much of an issue with med I won't be using them. I will just add another deep put the sugar water back on for 3 days and get them started.

You think it is because of the medium and they would do better with a deep? Try it. I don't think you will see any difference.

[Daniel Y]

Ace, I don't so much think it as I have read comments from others that do. Just trying to put together the why of what they are doing. I have a swarm in a top bar to compare to. The swarm seems to build comb only to a point and then they stop. So far I suspect they will be happy with that until the population increases.

Vance, No SBB.