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  1. #41
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzsaw2012 View Post
    If a person has a few hives , then the 5 gallon bucket with 2,4,and 600 micron screens and honey gate .
    ...Although it may take longer it sounds like the method for me.
    Add a bread knife and a $100 plastic 2 frame extractor and you're set. To extract and strain 5 supers with this setup took a few hours one afternoon netting 120 lbs honey. It took longer to bottle it. I'm not advocating the quality of the cheap plastic extractor, just that it's cheap and turns out a fine product.
    Go to Heaven for the climate, go to Hell for the company. -Mark Twain

  2. #42
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    That said, yes, the more you strain in, of course, the less stuff that will be in it. Most people where I live filter with 600. A bunch just use nylon stockings and toss them when they are done, but said that that is also about 600.
    Disclaimer: I know enough to know I don't know anything yet.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    The strainers are measured in "microns"... the 200 micron strainer has the smallest openings.
    I was thinking that the "size" (200,400,600) referred to the mesh number. The higher the mesh number the smaller the size.
    http://www.showmegold.org/news/Mesh.htm

    But i checked my 5 gal plastic sieves and they actually say 200 micron, 400 and 600 micron.

    So the same idea just reverse the numbers

  4. #44
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/filter

    When you are straining you are using pressure it is called gravitation pull which decreases by the volume.
    Gravity = pressure and is is inversely proportional to volume? Even from you Ace, that is the most ridiculous thing that I have heard in quite some time. You dont know what gravity is, yet somehow we are to accept your idea that filtration = straining.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  5. #45
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/filter

    Filter, strain, there is no difference.

    Really? Isn't it amazing what you can find on the internet. Shame you can't believe everything you read.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  6. #46
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    I guess I'm strange. I guarantee no whole honeybee in the honey...maybe the occasional leg or small part, hasn't happened yet though. I have a stainless steel strainer that is used for pasta when I first extract, but then it just sits for about a week or more and then bottled, bottom first. Those that want it will ask for honey from the top with all the stuff. Otherwise the family goes nuts over it. They like it better than the 'cleaner' bottom honey.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by notaclue View Post
    Those that want it will ask for honey from the top with all the stuff.
    Take that, vegetarians!
    Go to Heaven for the climate, go to Hell for the company. -Mark Twain

  8. #48
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    most pollen grains are somewhere between 2 and 200 microns in size. A 400 micron strainer will remove most wax, but let the balance of pollen, etc through. Sometimes filters slowly when the honey is below 90 degrees.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Gravity = pressure and is is inversely proportional to volume? Even from you Ace, that is the most ridiculous thing that I have heard in quite some time. You dont know what gravity is, yet somehow we are to accept your idea that filtration = straining.
    The way he worded it is bizarre but the way you reworded it is true Pressure = equals the force placed on the liquid over area being measured. In this case that force is gravity times the weight of the liquid column above the filter. The weight of this column is dependent on its density (unchanged) and its volume. You can discount atmospheric pressure of the column of air over the column of honey because it is also acting on your gauge and cancels itself out.

    You could determine the force of gravity from the pressure and the volume of a substance of known density such as honey so what he says is basically correct because pressure requires volume and a volume of any substance has mass.

    The force of gravity = the pressure over a given area multiplied by the height of a column of known density over a given area, and since hight multiplied by area gives you volume you end up with

    Force of Gravity = pressure and is is inversely proportional to volume
    IF you know the density of whatever is filling that volume and dimensions of that volume and since we are talking about honey in a bucket, we do. You also have to assume that the bucket isn't changing shape

    So its not that he's wrong, he's just leaving out the constants or assuming that we all know them.

    Or put it another way, a five gallon bucket of honey on mars will have less pressure at the bottom of the bucket than it does on earth and in theory you could use that bucket of honey and the pressure gauge to determine the force of gravity on mars and in turn the mass of the entire planet. Or as my girlfriend just pointed out, if you had a pocket watch you could do the same thing just by swinging the bucket of honey and timing the arc.

    As for straining I find that 1/8" mesh works fine. After a day or two you can skim the bee's knees off the top and eat it.

    What I think Acebird was trying to say was that instead of heating the honey to decrease its viscocity and allow it to pass through a fine filter you can increase the volume which will increase the pressure (assuming that volume is stacked up over the same sized fliter) which will also allow the honey to pass through the filter without heating it.

    Of course all this depends on:

    Last edited by Aerindel; 06-18-2012 at 01:04 AM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Area ≠ Volume
    Last edited by Barry; 06-18-2012 at 08:06 PM. Reason: quote
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  11. #51
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Wow! I have been up north for a while and look what happened. Aerindel said it right and I didn't say it right but Aerindel knew what I was trying to say except:

    You also have to assume that the bucket isn't changing shape
    Shape means nothing only the height of the liquid is important. Unit force is equal in all directions - (premise for designing dams).

    Pressure = heat that is a good one.
    The pressure at the bottom of the ocean is enormous (will crush a metal sub) and the water is freezing cold. Mark, you can decide on what ever beekeeper jargon you like but that doesn't make it technically correct.

    First of all most, if not all of the impurities that are objectionable in honey can be removed with out straining or filtering at all. A simple vat in storage over a long time will allow heavy particles to sink to the bottom and light particles like wax to rise to the top. All you need to do is wait and draw from the middle. Filters and strainers are used to make packaging quick.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #52
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Since when is gravity pressure?
    Gravity is exerted on a fluid, the weight of which over an area is pressure.

    Not the same thing, but close enough. Without pressure (gravity), the honey does not flow through the strainer.

    By the way, I again feel the crushing need to correct the statements of Mr. Cardinal. It is the increase in pressure that equals increase in heat, not high pressure itself. Pressure, heat, and volume have a direct relationship. For further information, read the Gas Laws Wikipedia page. It is very informative.

    But the reasoning behind the ocean is a different story. First of all, it is not freezing cold at the bottom of the ocean, it is in fact above freezing. The reason is because the temperature at which water molecules can get the closest to one another (under extreme pressure) is right above freezing. That's why ice has a greater volume than liquid water and floats where if it were like most other substances, it should be more dense and sink. It has to do with the polar nature of the water molecule. So in fact, the instantaneous pressure and temperature at the bottom of the ocean are irrelevant to the conversation as high pressure does not necessarily have a relationship to high temperature without the effect of volume considered.

    Similarly, if Mr. Cardinal were trying to prove the opposite point, he could state that the center of the earth where pressures are the highest is also very hot. But it would be equally irrelevant.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #53
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Shape means nothing only the height of the liquid is important. Unit force is equal in all directions - (premise for designing dams).
    It is important because as you say height is important. Five gallons of honey in a very tall narrow bucket will have much higher pressure at the bottom than five gallons of honey in a low flat bucket. In order to have an equation where gravity=pressure the shape of the container must be a constant, as must the density of the liquid. Like I said, it is a bizarre way to look at but it is a way that the statement force of gravity=pressure/volume could be true. No one would ever use this equation because its incomplete without the assumption of several constants, liquid type, shape of container etc, but it would work if you had those constants.



    Pressure = heat that is a good one.
    Change in density = heat. Liquids are very nearly non compressible so this does not apply. You can put liquids under enormous pressures and they do not noticeable change their volume or become warm.

    It does apply to gases. Compress a gas and that gas will release heat. When gas expands it absorbs heat. Conversely, heat a gas in a closed container and its pressure will increase, cool a gas and the pressure will decrease.

    If you compress a gas, hold it at pressure and let the heat that was generated dissipate and then allow that gas to expand it will absorb the same amount of heat that was lost earlier. This is how a refrigerator works and why liquid nitrogen at room pressure is so cold.

    Similarly, if Mr. Cardinal were trying to prove the opposite point, he could state that the center of the earth where pressures are the highest is also very hot. But it would be equally irrelevant.
    It is because the heat at the center of the earth has nothing to do with its pressure just as the temperature at the bottom of the ocean has nothing to do with its pressure. The earths core is very hot because of the retained heat generated during its formation, frictional heating caused by matter sinking through molten layers, and radioactive decay. It is thought that without radioactive decay the earth would have solidified millions of years ago.

    The formation of ice at high pressures is actually very interesting. Most liquids become solid at higher temperatures as pressure increases. This is how the earths core can be solid at a temperature of nearly 10,000F

    But water is the opposite. At higher pressures it freezes at lower temperatures. Or in other words, at the bottom of the sea water can exist in liquid form at a temperature below what is generally considered the freezing point. This is also how a glacier can slid on a layer of liquid water at its base that is the same temperature as the ice above it.

    If the temperature at the bottom of the ocean was below freezing the water there could still be liquid because of this, so again, I have to agree in principle with Acebird even though the temperature of the ocean floor is above a point where this would matter.

    It would be very interesting indeed if the temperatures and pressures at the bottom of the ocean where such that ice could form. Since it is lighter than water it would float to the top, lowering the surface temperature and allowing more warm water to move down where it would again freeze. Very shortly we would end up with an ocean that was frozen solid, except for the fact that as the warm surface water sank it would give up heat and eventually warm the ocean floor to just above freezing, which, as it happens to be, is the temperature that ocean floor currently is at.

    Isn't it great how things work out?


    Another weird thing that does happen at the bottom of the ocean is that methane hydrate, normally a gas at temperatures above freezing exists in solid form. This is basically methane ice and when it breaks loose it floats to the surface where it evaporates. During the BP oilspill this stuff causes a lot of problems since it condensed out of the spewing oil and formed solid ice on the equipment, which in turn made the equipment buoyant and blocked the pipes trying to suck up the oil.

    Sheets of this stuff exist in vat quantities in the ocean rocks and if they where to be released by a massive earthquake could create apocalyptic climate change. If you could somehow mine it in a practical way it would also be a great source of energy.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Gee, All I asked was, "How fine Do You Filter Honey?"

  15. #55
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Refrigeration works thru a change of state and latent heat. Latent heat being the energy used to change state say from 32 degree water to 32 degree ice or in the case of refrigeration the BTU's absorbed to change the state of Freon from a liquid to a gas without a change in temperature. A release of pressure indeed begins the change of state but it is not from a gas to a gas but a liquid to a gas. High temp, high pressure liquid freon enters the TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) or in the case of more primitive refrigeration an orifice tube, and changes to low pressure liquid and as it passes thru the evaporator it changes state to a low pressure gas (boils) the BTU's it takes to produce this change of state remove heat from the air passing thru the evap thus cooling the space intended.
    Mike Forbes
    Red Dirt Apiaries

  16. #56
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by NasalSponge View Post
    Refrigeration works thru a change of state and latent heat.
    This thread is turning into a science workshop. I am loving it.

    What happens when you burn propane to refrigerate stakes in your camper? I was camping this weekend.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #57
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    This thread is turning into a science workshop. I am loving it.

    What happens when you burn propane to refrigerate stakes in your camper? I was camping this weekend.
    What material were those stakes made from?

  18. #58
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    I knew the spelling was wrong but I thought Mark would correct me before you. So the race is still on...
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #59
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    In my business, drilling deep oil and gas wells, we use an approximation, but a very good one to calculate fluid pressure in psi. It is simply weight of fluid per gallon multiplied by 0.052. Therefore, 12 lb/gal honey would exert 12(0.052), or .624 psi per vertical foot of fluid. That would yield .312 psi per vertical inch of 12 lb/gal honey. This is only pressure and has nothing to do with viscosity.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: How fine Do You Filter Honey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Pawelek View Post
    Gee, All I asked was, "How fine Do You Filter Honey?"
    Pretty fine. At least that's what my customers tell me. That my honey is the finest they have ever eaten.
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