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  1. #341
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    908

    Default Re: Can someone please explain the Foundationless hype to me?

    "The problem remains one of a contaminated beeswax supply."

    You may need to import wax from Australia. Very few chemicals are permitted here in Beekeping. We have no Varroa ( so far!) and thus the need to use chemicals is much reduced.

    I don't produce a lot of wax and have all of it processed into foundations but there is wax for sale from time to time. I know that we can export honey ( and bees!) to the US but I'm not sure about wax.

  2. #342
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Can someone please explain the Foundationless hype to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    OK, I am too lazy to go to Internet and find a "proper" reference - everybody could easily do it by yourself. But I want to tell a small story, which may be an interest for this respectful meeting. Pesticides... there is a scientific expression - "a half life" (in the same line as LD50) - "half life" used to determine for how long chemical need to deteriorate that only half left? It is used for instance for radioactive contamination - how many decades to wait until half radioactivity left in Hiroshima? The same - for pesticides, after how many years it will be half from original amount. DTT was widely used in 60ex. If you old enough - you may remember the dust DTT sprayed from small aircraft over your backyard. So, for DTT, half life is 50 years (believe me or do your own reseach). It means that 50 years later, in year 2010 (approximately) there is still 50% of original amount DTT present and active. In year 2060 we shall have 25% of original amount of DTT contaminating our environment. In the year 2110 we shall have 12.5% of DTT from original amount. It is just simply science. WLC gave you VERY optimistic prognosis that pesticides from wax gone withing 50 years!
    I am sorry. I just had to jump in here. This statement is so frought with error that I don't even know where to start. To compare the half-life (t1/2) of an isotope with the Median Lethal Dose (LD50) of a pesticide, and then submit that the two are in any way even remotely the same, is just wrong.

    Do you even know what LD50 means? Based on what you wrote you have no clue. Pesticides do have a t1/2 but it has nothing to do with LD50.

    DDT is very highly persistent in the environment, with a reported half life of between 2-15 years.
    The reported half-life for DDT in the water environment is 56 days in lake water and approximately 28 days in river water.
    http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...s/ddt-ext.html

    Neither are anywhere close to 50 years!
    Last edited by bbrowncods; 10-28-2012 at 05:48 AM. Reason: clarity

  3. #343
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,064

    Default Re: Can someone please explain the Foundationless hype to me?

    Half life is the length of time it will require for half of the original amount to decay. So per the example above I will stay with 50 years. 50 years for the first half of a ton of some material to decay. But this is where the simple science does not fit. in fact that very term "simple Science" is a red flag for me. The decay rate of the first half says nothing about the decay rate of the second half.
    Full decay is not often if ever half life times 2.

    Compost for example. I take a ton of leaves and other organic material and put it in a pile. it begins to decay from the center. It takes a month for the first half to compost for a half life of 30 days. since the outer half stays drier cooler and is less hospitable to the organisms that cause decay. it is a year before the second half of the pile decays. The pile still had a half life of 30 days even though it took a year for it to decay.

    In another example, the evaporation of water. I take two cups of water. one is poured on a flat surface such as the top of a table. the other is poured into a narrow tall cylinder. 4 oz of water on the table will evaporate in 1 hour for a half life of 1 hour. half of the water in the cylinder will evaporate in 5 days for a half life of 5 days.

    Obviously there is much more to half life than simplicity.


    I believe it would be far more important to understand at what point the chemicals used in a have become inert. IN most cases I see evidence this happens within days.

    For the purpose if this discussion I will add this.

    In chemistry, the term inert is used to describe a substance that is not chemically reactive.

    Society today seems to want to assume that any chemical remains a chemical forever. That is like saying any clothing that gets wet is wet forever.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #344
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,451

    Default Re: Can someone please explain the Foundationless hype to me?

    Half life, of course, refers to half of the remainder. A half life of 50 would go 50-25-12.5 etc. though never actually reaching zero (at least in theory) it eventually becomes undetectable.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #345
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,515

    Default Re: Can someone please explain the Foundationless hype to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrowncods View Post
    ...Neither are anywhere close to 50 years!
    Well, different sources suggested DDT half-life from 2 to 150 years! American sources have a tendency to be more "liberal" to US citizens - usually, "american" numbers are smaller - 2-15 years. If you look for European sources, the numbers usually 10 times higher. As I stated in my original post, I did not do really serious search for more accurate data on DDT since the point of the topic was the ability of pesticides to accumulate in the beeswax and thus present danger to the bees.

    "As animals on the lower end of the food chain are eaten by those higher up, DDT becomes more and more concentrated the higher you go. This continues until the primary predator is reached, who will then receive the highest dose. DDT is highly persistent in the soil and can last from 2 - 15 years, not too bad some people might say, but when you look at the half-life in an aquatic environment, this can be about 150 years, one half-life being that time to degrade by 50%. DDT is highly acutely toxic to fish affecting membrane funtion and enzyme systems. Atlantic salmon fry were found to be affected at concentrations of 50 - 100 g/L, suffering from balance problems and impaired behavioural development. At the same time aquatic invertabrates and amphibians are also affected allbeit to a very slighter extent." http://www.the-piedpiper.co.uk/th13%28l%29.htm

    Please, note that I used example with DDT just for illustration purpose to illustrate the dynamic of pesticide accumulation in the environment. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

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