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  1. #101
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    Apr 2009
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    Stilwell, KS
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    "May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed thru the skin Avoid all contact. Use with adequate ventilation."

    can leave/have no effect on the bees, yet it kills the mites.
    MSDS is written for people, not bees.

    The vaporizor that I build worked good aerlt this spring, did not hurt may bees. I did not say no effect, but there are are plenty of studies that shows that OA to be very effective killing mites, with little little harm to the bees.

    Radetzki didn’t note increased bee mortality after winter treatment. Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: “We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.” “With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.” Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.

    Marinelli E., Formato G., Vari G., De Pace F.M. 2006 VARROA CONTROL USING CELLULOSE
    STRIPS SOAKED IN OXALIC ACID WATER SOLUTION Apiacta Vol 2006

    Radetzki, Thomas. Vaporization of oxalic acid and working safety.

    Radetzki, Thomas. Vaporisation of oxalic acid in a field trial with 1’509 colonies.

    Rademacher and Harz (2006) Effectiveness of Oxalic Acid for Controlling the Varroa Mite. ABJ
    146(7): 614-617.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,482

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by papar View Post
    If an inspector were to notice high mite levels, he would recommend that the beekeeper consider treatment for varroa or start looking at having a plan.
    I could have misinterpreted the post but my take is the inspector recommended not just a treatment but a chemical treatment. That sounds like management to me.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,092

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    " I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice. "

    WLC, To your question concerning "Do you know why the Inspector said what he said?", the above is what Waterbird said the Inspector said.

    I don't know the Inspector and I don't know Waterbird, so I have no idea how accurate Waterbirds statement is or if the Inspector used those words or not. First of all, just to be picky, lol, one dosen't medicate w/ a treatment you treat. So, right off the bat soething isn't kosher.

    Secondly, if Waterbirds bees have mites, it appears as though the Inspector is nof the opiniuon that the bees will have to be treated w/ a mitecide sometime. I don't know if "pretty much have no choice" means according to State Law or according to the Laws of Nature. I doubt that NJ has a mandatory treatment Law, but who knows.

    I believe the Inspector was, in all likelihood, giving what he thought was the best advice he could.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  4. #104
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,092

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I could have misinterpreted the post but my take is the inspector recommended not just a treatment but a chemical treatment. That sounds like management to me.

    If you got that from reading the original post, then you really know how to read between the lines. Because in the OP there is nothing what so ever a statement which says anything about chemical treatment. If that came up in a latter Post, please quote it.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,092

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Barry, how many Ramonas are there on beesourc?. I see the Ramona from MA and it seems like I saw a Ramona from somewhere out West. Same person different addresses?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    West Milford, NJ, USA
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    For what it's worth......The NJ State Inspector is good fair man, I'm sure he is giving the best advice available to him, IMHO he has not investigated treatment free, or given it a chance, for what reason I do not know. He is ALL ABOUT educating, he spent an hour with a group of people at the state fair, telling us all the nuances of judging honey, he is very enthusiastic, but I fear his eyes are not open to the possibilities of the benefit treatment free bee keepers could be. I wish it where otherwise.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,848

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    I like the discussion generated, but it could've all bee avoided if the inspector had just said "You will need to 'manage' the hive at some point"....... I think that's the take home message everyone is getting at. You should have a management plan for your hive. The issues and variables are too complex for anyone (any one) person to be absolutely correct. Even true non-management is something I suppose. It depends on each beeks perspective of what a healthy hive entails. Some people think healthy means no chemicals, some think it means no mites, some think it means some mites, but in the end it's the bees who need to tell you if their healthy or not and you should do you best to listen to them. I think sometimes we get caught up on trying to decipher the "right way" and "the wrong way" or probably as we see it... the "right way" and the "way everyone else does it"...

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,482

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Because in the OP there is nothing what so ever a statement which says anything about chemical treatment. If that came up in a latter Post, please quote it.
    Is this reading between the lines?
    he asked my if I was planning on medicating.
    He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,995

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Does it seem appropriate for an inspector to suggest that a Newbee with one hive, has the option of going the "NonTreatment" route? Perhaps if he had considerable experience and quite a few hives to work with.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  10. #110
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Does it seem appropriate for an inspector to suggest that a Newbee with one hive, has the option of going the "NonTreatment" route?
    Absolutely.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #111
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    2,995

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Absolutely.

    I wonder what the odds are of that guy having a successful beekeeping experience are? Not very good... I would think. Now if he had a few years experience or perhaps a strong (NonTreatment) mentor, I am sure the odds would improve.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  12. #112
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    He has zero chance of success if he puts chemicals in the hive unless he is willing to dump all his equipment to START over trying medication free beekeeping. How many years of medicating bees should he do until you think he knows enough to try something you don't believe in? I would just like to know how many years you think he should waste before he does something he believes in?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,437

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    The vaporizor that I build worked good aerlt this spring, did not hurt may bees.
    http://beenatural.wordpress.com/2011...ethal-effects/

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxal...-1-of-2-parts/

    "Ellis and Aliano found that OA is about 70 times as toxic to mites as it is to adult bees—which is a much greater spread than with either thymol or formic acid. The bees normally do not react defensively to being dribbled with syrup, but on rare occasions run out the entrance for a while. Occasionally one will notice a little adult bee kill after oxalic treatment. Adult bee kill does not seem to be an issue. However, there are questions about subtle effects, larval kill, and lasting suppression of brood development."
    Regards, Barry

  14. #114
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    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    2,995

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    5 hives and a good mentor... then jump in. Better chance of success. Who says I don't believe in it? If I had 5-10 hives I would be trying it.... I just can't see how it would work for a Commercial entity.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Stilwell, KS
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    1,818

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The bees normally do not react defensively to being dribbled with syrup, but on rare occasions run out the entrance for a while. Occasionally one will notice a little adult bee kill after oxalic treatment. Adult bee kill does not seem to be an issue. However, there are questions about subtle effects, larval kill, and lasting suppression of brood development."
    Sounds fairly benign to me. Anyway in my limited research and 1 data point, I think OA is a good approach. They sure seem to like it in Europe.

    I am tired of loosing colonies every winter. I will let you know how it works out next spring.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,594

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    I believe that success with bees depends more on bee resources than beelieving... I recall someone explaining this, maybe yesterday...

    Going chemical free, with one hive and no supporting nucs or outside resources will require more frequent package purchases ... It will be a treatment free bee purchasing treadmill. IMO
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,482

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    It will be a treatment free bee purchasing treadmill. IMO
    So far we have purchased two nucs. It is getting pretty close to three years and neither hive loss was due to mites. Learning curve, yes, mites no. We all have our own perception but I don't consider that a bee purchasing treadmill.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    'Going chemical free, with one hive and no supporting nucs or outside resources will require more frequent package purchases...'

    I think that you'll ultimately have to split into nucs anyway for mite mitigation.

    I also think that you would almost certainly have to depend on queen breeders not only to start with appropriate queens (VSH in my case), but for requeening as well when things start getting out of hand.

    I've included peppermint as a food grade 'treatment'. So, I'm not completely chemical free according to some. And, it is a treatment (Yes, I do treat myself to a peppermint drop as well).

    So, I'm on a management and candy treadmill.

    Would it have been easier and cheaper to use standard treatments? I don't know.

    However, I do agree that you do have to have some kind of a plan to deal with pests and pathogens.

    What may turn out to have the best bottom line for 'treatment free bees' is the purchase of new stock yearly.

    Shake em into a box at the end of the season, then 'zip up' up the hive(s) until the new stock arrives in the spring.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,073

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    So, I think it is safe to say that feral hives get occupied by swarms. Those colonies may survive for a number of years, casting off swarms most likely, and then they die. Getting reoccupied the next year or some year after that.
    Perhaps some feral hives have a better chance of long term survival because they do swarm - brood breaks, phoretic mites leaving with the swarm, fresh queens, etc. Seems like I read that on Randy Oliver's web site.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,092

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Is this reading between the lines?
    I should learn to ignore what you write. Because you stated the use of heavy chemicals and nothing the Inspector supposedly said indicated what kind of ntreatment the Poster should use. Maybe the Inspector believes in powdered sugar treatment. We don't know. But you assumed. Which isn't a good idea.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

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