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Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

44K views 180 replies 40 participants last post by  waynesgarden 
#1 ·
I sent an e-mail to the state bee inspector saying that if they would be in the area would they mind stopping by and checking out my hive to make sure I was doing everything properly and that my hive was clean of any issues.

It went good, the guy was very nice and informative, he taught me a few things and showed me a few things about my hive. everything is looking fine in the hive.

I am very happy with the way everything went. The only thing that I was a little concerned about was he asked my if I was planning on medicating. Personally, I am all down for organic, natural, let em bee, however if there is something that is wrong then I will treat them as necessary. I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.

Is this true ???

What is the best brand of mite treatment. Maybe one with the least impact??? Organic???

Thanks guys.
 
#2 ·
What is the best brand of mite treatment. Maybe one with the least impact??? Organic???

Thanks guys.
Tell him that you are going 'small cell' by letting them build their own comb.

This makes it to where the bees can naturally better defend against such critters - for one thing - the bee larvae hatch two days sooner than the large cell and this cuts down significantly on the mites being able to reproduce.

Check out Michael Bush's info (although I'm sure the inspector will claim it's anecdotal):

Natural Cell Size - And it's implications to beekeeping and Varroa mites


http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


Also

Four simple steps to healthier bees -
Common sense choices to keep your bees alive


http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

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#3 ·
.

Also, I highly recommend listening to all these archived podcasts from this site which promotes natural bee keeping. These interviews are excellent:

(There are about 3 pages in this archive, so be sure to click on "PREVIOUS" once at the bottom of page):

Organically Managed Beekeeping Podcast and Forums

http://somdbeekeeper.com/

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#4 ·
What is the best brand of mite treatment.
Get some nuc equipment and start to over-winter more bees. If you want one hive in the Spring, I would have three colonies going into the Winter...

Try to get "summer queens" from a local / regional source.

I don't use any chemicals, and I'm not sure if I did any sugar dusting last year... My bees are are mostly from Michael Palmer queens or queen daughters of MP's and some Russians.

Start some nucs!

I do happen to use small-cell as well, but make no claims to its effectiveness in reducing mites.
 
#6 ·
Water, I think you have the right approach on it. I'm not going to say the inspector is wrong as he was probably told to encourage people to treat whether they need it or not. It's probably the state/county's way to think they're being proactive and minimizing infestations even though, from a pest-management perspective it's not the best practice. I believe in treating, but not un-necessarily. You have to think about the issue as a management issue, and part of the mite problem is the way bees are kept too. Part of it is due to not being able to completely shut down the hive, clean everything up and start with ideal conditions every year.
If you look at the mite problem, I don't believe in true "resistance". I would say mite tolerant at best. True resistance would be zero mite reproduction in your hive.
Also, you need to take people who claim "non treatment" with a grain of salt. If they're doing brood breaks, making splits, using drone comb.... guess what that is.... that's treatment. That is manipulating your bees to kill mites. Also, everyone's situation is going to be different. Sometimes true-non treatment works, but there's so many factors involved we'll never know why. It could be the bee genetics, the local mite population genetics, maybe there's some plant pollen or nectar the bees are feeding on that is toxic to the mites, maybe there's a local fungus/bacteria that kills mites, maybe there's something their equipment was treated with that kills mites.... I think you're on the right track, just find or make a management strategy that works for you.
 
#7 ·
Re: Bee Inspector Go treatment free but if you must "treat as necessary" go IPM

I am all down for organic, natural, let em bee, however if there is something that is wrong then I will treat them as necessary.
So taking your statement to the inspector as your philosophy, sounds like your current view is IPM. I practice true treatment free (although as I do some walkaway splits & shake artificial swarms for breeding and anti-urban swarming, you could claim that as a side affect I do something that doesn't meet forum guidelines for "treatment" but JRG13 points out is helping treat for mites unintentionally.

So I encourage treatment free using local stock and foundationless brood area, but if you are looking to "treat as necessary" look up Intergrated Pest Managment (IPM) it may be "natural", "Unofficial Organic" it won't be treatment free. I think it does long term damage to treat and would rather suffer losses of bees that are so week to need treatment. But the premise of IPM would be measuring the mite loads (shake cup or mite drop) and using least damaging treatment if needed (i.e. essential oil/thymol, or acid fume/formic acid.)

I think you should change your mind and listen to the great non-treatment approaches listed above, but to be fair to your question, if you continue to want to "treat if necessary" lookup IPM with bees (a good IPM pdf book for free is Beekeeping basics http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/agrs93.pdf.) Check out IPM on page 49.

Principles of IPM
• Decision-making process based on understanding the pest, the host, and their interactions
• Based on thresholds
• Uses multiple tactics
• Must be safe, profitable, and environmentally friendly

To answer what is "most organic" or however you phrased it, I think the essential oils less drastic then formic acid, so maybe Api-Life Var, but while I've seen others use it I have no experience with it as I went treatment free from start. I have seen bees flee the hive from formic acid though and hear the queen breaks laying for a bit, hence more drastic. The claims by the companies on % killed give formic a slight edge, but on studies of effectiveness I've seen Api-Life Var have a slight edge.

All that being said to answer your question, but please ignore it and follow the link to Bush and the podcast links others put above.
 
#10 ·
the bee inspector sees everybodys bees every day. he sees what works and what doesnt. without treatment your bees will probably die in 2-3 yrs at the best. we have not treated for 2 yrs in our present cycle but we are not treatment free, just lucky. we make a few nucs each yr, also most of our hives get a break from the brood cycle which helps. some of our hives hives have to be treated soon. there are a lot of soft treatments available today. stay away from apistan and you should do well.
 
#11 ·
without treatment your bees will probably die in 2-3 yrs at the best. l.
Admittedly, I'm new at bee keeping.

But, given your statement above, how are feral colonies able to survive treatment-free?

I'm not trying to be a smart-*** or anything like that. I am really trying to find out the truth from all of you people who are experienced.

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#12 ·
they are replaced by swarms that happen upon vacant nests. we just got back from sc to bring back hives for summer. we were 2-3 weeks later than we wanted because of older parents health problems. for every swarm lost where did they go. probably some tree that someone thought to be feral? no way to verify.
 
#14 ·
wow, Im a little over whelmed by all the responses. Thanks everybody I really appreciate the help.

right now I have a package of Italians installed 11 days ago, they have capped brood and probably half or two thirds of a deep super drawn out. right now that are not being fed however I am picking up feeders and starting that very soon. I also have 2 Nucs of Carniolans coming in very soon.

The bees I have now are building on mostly wax coated plastic foundation and some wax foundation.

He said wait until the brood box is fully drawn out and then add another deep super and continue feeding until that super was drawn out as well. and that a honey crop would be very unlikely for this year.

I thing that foundation-less frames are out of the picture for this year. as much as I would like to try that some day. I think that the essential oils are the treatment that might work best for me but im still not sure.



Again I appreciate all the responses, and the more and more I get into Beekeeping Im finding that everybody has their own way of doing things and they are ALL different so Im enjoying my time learning from everybody I meet.

Thanks again,

Al
 
#16 ·
Bees die if you treat or not - that is a fact not an opinion. If you want your bee keeping to be sustainable then you need to make increase and go into every season with enough colonies to be viable even when some die. This is as important as your choice of managment practices. Or more.
 
#19 ·
#20 ·
I don't know that any blanket statement about feral bees can be made w/ any accuracy any more so than any blanket statement about managed colonies. I can say that I know of a cavity which has had bees in it for the last 12 years or more. During the years of my observing the entrance I have seen one year which I can recall when the colony must have died. And then it was reoccupied the next year.

So, I think it is safe to say that feral hives get occupied by swarms. Those colonies may survive for a number of years, casting off swarms most likely, and then they die. Getting reoccupied the next year or some year after that.

I have a maple tree hive in my front yard that has been unoccupied for a couple of years now. Maybe I should let some of my home yd hives swarm?
 
#22 ·
So, I think it is safe to say that feral hives get occupied by swarms. Those colonies may survive for a number of years, casting off swarms most likely, and then they die. Getting reoccupied the next year or some year after that.
How different is the cycle for a managed hive under the manipulations of human beings with all their potions? Don't colonies die off and get replaced at a tremendous cost. Why not let nature do it for free.
 
#21 ·
The NJ Inspector taught the disease and pest portion at my bee keeping class, he's a wonderful teacher, but I did notice a bit of eye rolling and impatience when students asked questions about small cell, regressed bees, TBH's and the like. Choose your own path, lots of bee keepers are doing well with no-treatments. I just bought 2 packages of no treatments bees and the bee keepers told me he had a 90% over winter survival. Thats pretty good no matter what path you choose.
 
#24 · (Edited)
The NJ Inspector taught the disease and pest portion at my bee keeping class,
You are going to be hard pressed to find a Michael Bush type as a state inspector, yet who would be better qualified? State inspectors are essentially commercial operators that have had slash and burn ingrained into their training.
 
#23 · (Edited)
@Bonnie - You are absolutely correct - choose your own path - but be ready to accept the consequences. We had a mild winter this past year and I'd expect most any knowledgeable beekeeper in the NJ area to have 10% losses. Part of the eye rolling on the part of the inspector is that there are very few individuals who are skilled enough to do well regularly without treatments. No doubt the inspector has seen a lot of dead treatment free bees. There is much romance about treatment free and many folks ignore or don't hear about the losses that go hand in hand with selecting for resistant stock or regressing cell size. While it is not impossible for a back yard beekeeper with two hives to announce they are going to be treatment free with two purchased packages and be successful, it is very likely the bees will be dead before two years have passed. Inspectors get to see lots of people who haven't a clue what they are doing try treatment free only to complain that their bees have died. Now treated bees often die too, but Inspectors tend to have more sympathy for people who recognize the problems they have and attempt to deal with them.

If your hive succumbs to viruses related to having too many mites and the inspector told you to deal with your mites or the hive would die it is hard to have much sympathy. Too many people think that being treatment free is doing nothing. For those not starting out with genetics known to be treatment free, treatment free is a tough road to follow, and I will be so bold as to say, one not to be undertaken casually.

As disclosure - I have hives that are treated, Russians that are not, and some newly started hives from packages from B Weaver that will not be treated. I want treatment free to work. I just hate to see beginners make it sound overly simple.
 
#26 ·
Wow, the the similarities between the topics of bee keeping and health/wellness/medicating/vaccinating are astonishing. In fact, I got interested in bee keeping because I run with a group of people who don't believe in vaccinating or using medicines other than emergency situations.

But the bottom line is, whether or not medications/treatments/vaccinations, etc, "work" for bees and/or humans - the fact remains that we are creating creatures that cannot survive on their own. We are weakening everything and distorting DNA in many cases.

I have two unvaccinated sons. One is 4 and one is 6. They have zero chronic autoimmune or neurological issues which have become epidemic in children over the past 20 years. They have no allergies, asthma, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, eczema, leaky gut syndrome, crohn's disease, MS, seizures, ear infections, lupus, autism, etc, etc, etc.

If you ask most people who have kids who are unvaccinated, they will give you the very same testimonial.

Some of you may say that you were vaxed as a child and you are ‘ok’ - but the vaccination schedule has almost quadrupled since the 80s. Admittedly children are getting other assaults through their sugared/aspartamed/GMO food, fluoride, and other toxins and poisons, but the vaccines are largely responsible for this toxic overload we are now seeing.

We all realize that emergency medicine is essential and a blessing - but for everyday health issues - go to your pesticide-free, non-GMO garden for your health - not your doctor.

And for bees, we should also consider the same philosophy, IMHO.

(OK, I'll stand back and watch the fireworks begin .....cringes)

.
 
#29 ·
I have two unvaccinated sons. One is 4 and one is 6. They have zero chronic autoimmune or neurological issues which have become epidemic in children over the past 20 years. They have no allergies, asthma, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, eczema, leaky gut syndrome, crohn's disease, MS, seizures, ear infections, lupus, autism, etc, etc, etc.
I truly wish you the best and am confident no one will provide better care for your boys than you.

I've kept bees for about a decade and we ate most of our harvest. Last month my boy got stung by my bee on the top of his head and blew up like a balloon within a half hour. Two hours later we left the ER and now keep EpiPens close. My neighbors are Herbalife advocates along with the natural lifestyle. A virus triggered an autoimmune response in their beautiful eight year old blond boy that swelled his spinal column. After four months in the IC unit and ten months in therapy, he came home with a feeding tube. He now can eat normally, but lost the use of his arm and difficulties continue. My other neighbor raised their children on unpasteurized milk as part of their natural lifestyle. Their girl joined his brother's bio-gas business in Kenya last year. She just busted her hip and leg in a motorcycle accident. Only option there is exploratory surgery. The silver lining is she didn't need a transfusion since most of the people they know there are HIV positive.

My boys experienced issues in elementary school. After a string of "professionals", an objective study revealed ADD like the nose on your face for three generations of us. Both boys now have fantastic grades, made leaps in social skills and nothing is in their way. Yes, the medicines help.

Everything requires balance.
 
#27 ·
I did not go into treatment free with rose colored glasses on, and know very well that just stopping the treatments is not the key to success, mite resistant genetics, survival of the fittest, hygenic behaviors are the key. I except and expect some losses, basically good riddence in the gene pool. Really who are we to think we know better than mother nature.
 
#28 ·
Smells like the same can of worms.

IMHO we learn from one year to the next. More accurately, we learn from what we did the year before. After gaining success, embracing change becomes difficult and the methods used must be the best, for everyone. That often leads to incessant and unhelpful bantering.

I suggest using a comfortable mite count method. Listen to your bees first, then pick and choose guidance that suits your habits.
 
#30 ·
My late great grandmother's old house has had a honeybee hive in the attic in the same spot for at least 40 years and maybe more. I dont know of any swarms that were ever seen coming or going. This is in reference to feral hives not vaccinations. Sorry
 
#32 ·
Amen.

I'm not here to force my way on anyone and the govt dang sure isn't going to force their "treatments" on my boys or bees.

Again, emergency medicine in the west can't be beat. But I don't want my kids on an asthma inhalers, eczema medicines or having to buy them Cancer Barbies........it's what works for me and my family. Some people love going to the doctor every week and buying prescriptions. I don't.
 
#40 ·
I don't think I have said anything that either of you should take offense at. Are you both not commercial? Aren't you both in favor of medicating bees? And yes, you were both state inspectors at one time. Isn't that my point?

I've seen you drop a few humdingers but that one is one of the most uneducated statements I've seen on this forum.
Please educate me. I value your opinion.

Maybe I could have said it another way but what isn't untrue about my statement. It would be no different than asking someone that has been involved in big Ag all their life on how to deal with a weed problem. The answer is going to be medicate they know no other way. Please help me on rewording what I said. Make it politically acceptable.
 
#42 ·
Make it politically acceptable.
There ya go. What does politics have to do w/ anything?

When have I ever told anyone to medicate? I use mite treatments and, if asked, advise on how to use them using my experience. As an Inspector I was prevented from making management recommendations. It was against Policy. I don't use, nor recommend the use of, TM or Tylosin, profolactic treatments for prevention of AFB. Those that use them I don't condemn either.

When have I ever slashed and burned, whatever that means?

I have a degree from OSU/ATI in Commercial Beekeeping, an Associates Degree. Which I got before becoming an Apiary Inspector. But, it did not make me a Commercial Beekeeper. I made myself a Commercial Beekeeper by buildiung my business over the years, while being an Apiary Inspector. Working along side Commercial Beekeepers who I respect from time to time. While also spending 40 hours per week serving beekeepers by checking their hives for pests and diseases of honeybees. Giving workshops on identification of AFB and how to handle it when found.

To say someone like my self and my fellow current and former Apiary Inspectors know no other way is insulting, as if we are androids or something, unable to think for ourselves taking in information as it develops and incorporating it into our knowledge base.

Mostly I would like to say that you have opinions not based on facts. Something so often true amungst internet "experts". I have said it many times, you are brand new at beekeeping. Give it some time. Learn and experience before you open your mouth.
 
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