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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    There's no way that anyone can say a hive is healthy just by looking.

    You treat according to a calendar not because it's a sure thing.

    Better yet, just chuck the whole requirement and allow for the free movement of bees.
    To the best of our ability, yes we can. Otherwise, no one would be able to sell bees to anyone else unless they were medicated and treated under supervision of some sort of inspector. Totally rediculous, expensive and unnecassary.

    There is no way anyone can say a hive is healthy? Then there must also be no way to say you or I are healthy. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. But we appear so, for the most part. Yet we carry pathogens.

    "You treat according to a calendar not because it's a sure thing."? Do you do so? How do you explain those who do treat and still come down w/ AFB? Are the rest of their hives unhealthy also, being in proximity of each other at one time or another?

    "self certification"? Pretty much what we have in the East now anyway. NYS is required to inspect and certify the health of bees traveling to other States. They do that by inspecting 10% of what a beekeeper says he is transporting. If I look at only 10% of the colonies in an Apiary, what are the chances of finding a diseased colony? Pretty slim. How about 40 out of 400?

    So, being as it is my livelihood, I burn any cases of AFB I find. I also challenge anyone to find any AFB in my outfit. I would appreciate and benefit from a thourough inspection. NYS can't afford to do it.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  2. #62
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by spunky View Post
    I second cleaning your frame top bars with wood bleach it works
    For what?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
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    2,867

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Oxalic Acid. Simple, cheap, organic, very effective, and benign.
    Quote Originally Posted by spunky
    I second cleaning your frame top bars with wood bleach it works
    And not approved for use as a miticide in the US. The cleaning your frame top bars "claim" is ultra transparent and doesn't pass the smell test.

    Beekeepers seem to share the general populations fascination with the chemical industry as we search for a product that will kill mites and leave bees alive. And then we wonder why there are increased regulations aimed at keeping honey pure.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  4. #64
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterbird17 View Post
    I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.

    Is this true ???

    Thanks guys.
    Is that what he said? He didn't mean you were required to treat for mites, did he? Of course you have a choice. You always have a choice. Choosing to go along w/ what someone recommends, or not, is a choice. I doubt that NJ REQUIRES you to treat your colony(s) for mites. Mites have never been requlated by Apiary Inspection Programs. You can have as many as you want. NYS has never required mite treatment, I doubt NJ does either.

    MiteAway Quick Strips (aka MAQS) are supposed to work well. A formic acid product which can be used anytime temps are adequate. Pretty much "organic".
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  5. #65
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    9,466

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    What do you base this statement on? Slash and burn?
    Slash and burn is a medical phrase for treating cancer, actually it is slash, burn and poison. It refers to surgically removing the infected area, radiation and chemo. I shouldn't use phrases that everyone doesn't understand. We were talking about medicating so it just popped out.

    I apologize for the insulting phrase and I have removed it. What I said was not what I meant. Please forgive.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #66
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What is it you know about bees, that they don't know?
    Part of knowing is believing and logical thinking. "They" may know that chemical treatments will not work in the long run but they don't want to believe it because of the economics. I am not saying I wouldn't do the same in their shoes but I am not in their shoes and there are a lot of beekeepers who are not in their shoes.

    To give you a direct answer to what I know about bees vs. "they" is simple: They know everything and I know nothing. I expect to learn a little more but as the scale goes I don't believe I will know much above nothing compared to what they know. If it is too much work on your part to change that I understand.

    Mark, if you take prescription drugs to control your blood pressure and cholesterol do you appear healthy? Are you? What about having surgery to control your weight, do you look healthy? Are you? It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #67
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Slash and burn is a medical phrase for treating cancer,...

    I apologize for the insulting phrase and I have removed it. What I said was not what I meant. Please forgive.
    Inapplicable analogy in my opinion. As you now recognize it was inappropriately used.

    You are forgiven. I respect someone who asks for forgiveness. Until the next time.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #68
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    Jan 2008
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    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
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    1,697

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.
    With honey bees, no it is not. It is very easy infact. This is why it is good to keep notes on the hives for a few years, in a diary or a calendar book or on the computer or in a coil note book.

    Walking up to a hive and popping the lid, I can tell right away if there is a problem. It will take a few minutes to diagnose the problem due to having to inspect the hive. Getting to the point of being able to diagnosis a hive takes time and experience, but soon it will become as easy. . As in all things there is a learning curve...one just has to want to learn and be observant. It becomes part of you. It is part of the job to know, and tell the difference between a healthy hive and a sick hive...it is what one signs up for when they purchase livestock or pets.

    For a person with a single hive, yes it might be difficult without another hive to compare to...this is why it is recommended to have two hives especially at start up, so you can compare . But soon if one is obsevant, seeing is knowing

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Part of knowing is believing and logical thinking.

    Mark, if you take prescription drugs to control your blood pressure and cholesterol do you appear healthy? Are you? What about having surgery to control your weight, do you look healthy? Are you? It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.
    Believing w/out knowing is best left to Religion, not beekeeping or just about any other part of life, imo.

    What is health regarding the average human being? I have heard of marathon runners falling dead from heart attacks. Certainly they are heathly, aren't they, up until they drop dead? Health and healthiness are relative terms. Do you believe that taking medication to maintain good cholesteral and blood pressure numbers is not a healthy practice? I know I would benefit from more exercise and a better diet. But, in the mean time, I believe what my Doctor tells me when she reads my test results.

    The only practical means of accessing whether a colony of bees is healthy or not is by way of observation. If you don't know what healthy bees and brood looks like, believing won't help you what so ever.

    I find comparisons between bees and humans rather unsatisfying and inadequate. Let's stick to what is know about bees, please.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,594

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post

    Mark, if you take prescription drugs to control your blood pressure and cholesterol do you appear healthy? Are you? What about having surgery to control your weight, do you look healthy? Are you?
    I think this is personal and invasive. In another thread a beekeepers "crotch area" was brought into a conversation...



    It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.
    Yes, but reading some recent postings helps with the diagnosis ...
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  11. #71
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    "Otherwise, no one would be able to sell bees to anyone else unless they were medicated and treated under supervision of some sort of inspector. Totally rediculous, expensive and unnecassary."

    That's not accurate.

    If you're selling over $10,000 worth of bees, it's a small matter to show the buyer your receipts and treatment logs.

    Ditto for an inspector when obtaining paperwork to transport across state lines.

    It's certainly not ridiculous to ask for that kind of information as a buyer. You'd need to know that information to determine for what and when you may need to treat. Or, if you even want to do business with that outfit in the first place.

    The NJ inspector leaned on the OP because he is probably sick and tired of getting calls saying, "My bees are lousy with mites, help."

    My interpretation is that that the OP didn't have a satisfactory answer for the inspector on how they are mitigating pests and pathogens in their hives.

    "VSH, essential oils, and splitting." would have been a more satisfactory answer.

    Anything would have been better than simply saying, "I don't treat."

  12. #72
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    It's pretty easy to pick up some peppermint candy drops at the local store, and put a few into your hive(s).

    Then you can say, "I use essential oils."

    I think that the bees are 'happier' when I give them peppermint.

    As for the usual suspects, they do go off on tangents.

  13. #73
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    The NJ inspector leaned on the OP
    Leaned on the OP? I certainly didn't see that in the OP.
    Last edited by Barry; 05-28-2012 at 10:58 AM. Reason: excessive quoting
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  14. #74

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterbird17 View Post
    It went good, the guy was very nice and informative, he taught me a few things and showed me a few things about my hive. everything is looking fine in the hive.

    I am very happy with the way everything went.

    I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.

    Is this true ???

    What is the best brand of mite treatment. Maybe one with the least impact??? Organic???

    Thanks guys.
    WB, Welcome to beekeeping, you got good sound advice for NJ bees. Varroa is a very real fact. Mites make bees weak and die young. Everything was going cool with the visit, then the retching [sic] began when "organics" was introduced to your beekeeping. It sounds like if you had mites you might take actons to treat for them. I hope that you will take the time to learn how to detect the mite level that your bees have.

    Left untreated and given ample food for winter I would say there is a 90% chance of 1st year survival.
    After that, into the second year, with the mite build up and far too many variables to detail in a paragraph, your chances of hive survival will diminish significantly.

    I have found Apigaurd, Apilife-Var and MAQS all will work if applied "correctly". There are also other physical interventions that can be done. All of the above can have minimal impact on the bees compared to a mite infestation. Or, do nothing. The choice will always be yours.

    Impact to the beekeeper can be $ignificant. Loss of a nuc or package or an overwintered colony here in NJ can be $80-$125 or more for replacement. Not to mention the value of all the lost time, pollination and honey production.

    When with just the use of an old mason jar, some 1/8 screen and confection sugar and less than $12 worth of "treatment" or a few minutes of manipulation can make all the difference in hive survival against mites. Why not? I make choices based on mite population. Some of my bees get no treatment and many more do. I know the risk of not treating but really do try to put the odds in my (and the bees) favor with a wee bit of knowledge.

    Good Luck

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,431

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Slash and burn is a medical phrase for treating cancer
    It's first and foremost an agricultural technique, the common understanding of the phrase.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #76
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's pretty easy to pick up some peppermint candy drops at the local store, and put a few into your hive(s).

    Then you can say, "I use essential oils."

    I think that the bees are 'happier' when I give them peppermint.

    As for the usual suspects, they do go off on tangents.
    Pot meet kettle.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,466

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    The only practical means of accessing whether a colony of bees is healthy or not is by way of observation. If you don't know what healthy bees and brood looks like, believing won't help you what so ever.
    If you could open up a hive and determine the bees are healthy the death of a colony would never be a surprise. I don't know if I will ever get to that point where I could look in to a hive and claim they won't die. I wonder how many people can with any certainty.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    1,976

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    I get the feeling that inspectors often catch attitude when they casually ask what a beekeepers plan is for mites. This is probably most often from new keepers that had equipment installed wrong, weren't comfortable pulling brood for inspector and had a million questions.

    Most of the experienced people that claim long term success without chemicals don't strike me as the type to agitate an inspector. They seem to be more likely to be passionate about thier methods and excited to share. At the very least, interested to hear what the inspector is passing out as advise to others.

    If an inspector shares his knowledge and suggest chemicals and you don't want to use them don't
    If you want to discuss with him be prepared to give a good explanation of your plan, he is probably knowledgable and interested in the bees. A simple thanks for the advise is fine too.

  19. #79
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    You can say that they look healthy.

    But, at the same time, those bees could be harboring every single pest and pathogen known to beekeeping as 'inapparent' infections.

    They're there and waiting for the right conditions.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.

    Wow, really trying to split a hair, aren't you? There are pathogens all around every living thing waiting for the right conditions. What's your point? Everything is unhealthy?
    Regards, Barry

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