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Using virgin Queens

17K views 49 replies 14 participants last post by  BeeCurious 
#1 ·
If you were going to graft from them to mate the daughters with your local drones anyway, have you thought about just asking to switch your order to virgins? You could probably get three times as many virgins for the money that you have already paid and they would have those on hand all the time. Then you wouldn't have to wait for the mother queens to start laying and graft and so on. Just a thought.
 
#3 ·
Re: Russell Queens

The virgins will make solid drones for you other grafts. There are so many grafts emerging every day that they don't have places for them because they over graft to be safe. They just throw them away. So the virgins won't slow up other orders anyway. I don't think they are as far behind as it seems here. If you count up the people complaining, its probably a few hundred queens and less than twenty people. They produce thousands of queens a week. You want me to get them to contact you about it? I have a few cell phone numbers that I'm not suppose to have. Ha ha ha!
 
#6 ·
Re: Russell Queens

Done! It's good to have friends with bugs sometimes. Ha! The British lady, Victoria should be getting up with you soon. She was all alone answering emails and calls while they were all with Johnny's wife and baby. She even said that she had no idea why, but the emails and calls were more than ever so she's just getting further and further behind and its like every one of them were checking status of orders that aren't even due yet. Ha ha ha! I think the stir here has just caused a worry that caused communications to get further behind which was causing more of a stir, and it became a vicious cycle. She said she could get you a case of whatever you want in virgins. They were going to toss hundreds that emerged yesterday. They should be just what you needed.
 
#7 ·
Re: Russell Queens

Wow, Thanks!
(Now I feel guilty since they are so busy and so many have not gotten their orders)
But thank you for taking the time to help. :)
I'll have to go whip out some more mating nucs then. You just never know what tomorrow will bring do you?

Lauri
 
#9 ·
Re: Russell Queens

She emailed me right away and is sending a full box of virgin sunkist cordovans with a few buckfast. If I get a good mating return I will have a few to share will a few local people in my area who also are overdue for their orders. Got to share the wealth you know.
You are a good guy, Hugh:) Thanks so much for your help.
Lauri
 
#11 ·
Re: Russell Queens

She emailed me right away and is sending a full box of virgin sunkist cordovans with a few buckfast.
You probably already know this but introducing virgins into a hive or nuc has its challenges. My success rate has been abysmal.
Best of luck.
 
#12 ·
Re: Russell Queens

We make the hive queenless, even for only 20 minutes, smoke the hive fairly heavily and set the virgin in the space between two frames and watch her walk down.

If for whatever reason we can't make the hive queenless, we smoke the hive heavily and put the virgin as far away from the suspected frame where the mated queen may be hanging out then release the virgin.

We raise and release virgins into nucs and hives that have (or have recently had) queens and have very good acceptance rates.

I don't pinch the mated queens but split them off so they can keep making brood while the virgins are getting mated and setting up house.

Virgins are very cheap relative to mated queens - if one fails, it's not that expensive to try again.

Lauri, I think you're running over 50 colonies so if one or two fail, not such a big deal time wise.

We raise all our own queens from our survivor stock - it's great to have a supply as you need them and see the shift as the bees become more and more acclimatized to their environment.

Judging from all the agricultural stuff you are already doing, you will LOVE raising your own!

Ramona
 
#13 ·
Re: Russell Queens

Ramona

I have several queenless 5 frame nucs that have been queenless now for almost 2 weeks. I don't see any worker layers to date. So you would smoke them heavily and run her down between the frames and expect her chances of survial to be pretty good? What about rolling her in honey, or introducing her in a large push in cage over emerging brood. I'm purchasing a few virgins and not raising my own at this time.
 
#50 ·
Re: Russell Queens

I'm going to be sharing a dozen or so of Adam Finkelstein's VP Spartan virgins with a friend of mine.
I set some frames of brood above queen excluders to get them ready to use in my 3-frame medium nucs (queen castles) .

Will it be OK to setup the the queen castles a day before the arrival of the virgin queens?

The sealed/emerging brood frames that I have also have some older larvae. Will that keep the bees in place?
 
#18 ·
Re: Russell Queens

I'll post a report in a day or two. Those 20 virgin queens will be here today and I have been scrambling to prepare for their unexpected delivery.(They were supposed to be mated, but due to circumstances I took virgins instead)
Yesterday I Made 15 more baby mating nucs out of some scrap 3/4" laminated plywood.
Today I brushed 3 deep box's of bees into a deep full of half frames to make them a queenles shook swarm and give the older bees and drones time to fly back to the original hive locations and old queens.
I'll have to place a small baggie feeder with syrup in the nucs, as I don't have candy to feed. I'll take two mini frames and the bees that are clinging to it and place them in the baby mating nuc, then install the queen in her shipping cage for a day. She is about 3 days old already and will have to be released as soon as she is accepted..I'll poke a hole in the candy for a fast release. I'll try a direct release or two first and watch closley. I'll let you know how it works out!
I'll give the inside and the top of the frames a little spray with Prohealth/water for a strong smell that will hopefully help mask the queens scent until they have become use to her. Using my disk excluders I will confine them until tomorrow evening.
That's the plan anyway! My weather here is horrable, raining like crazy and cool. But Friday and the weekend are going to be in the upper 70's. just about perfect timing for mating flights I'd say. I'm crossing my fingers I will get it right!
 
#22 · (Edited)
Re: Russell Queens

OK, so what am I missing here?? Why aren't they mating those virgins vs. eliminating them either with the pinch throw out method, or shipping method??
Here is one of my posts on another thread that will explain how I ended up getting virgin queens instead of mated queens:

I've been jealously reading for months, those in warmer climates working their bees and collection swarms, etc.
All the while my over wintered bees are still huddled in the hives, with only an occasional cleansing flight.
I wish I could be as patient as some of you who can be OK with accepting your queens anytime they should show.
If they 'show' here too late in the fall, They will just go right into a hive preparing to over winter, and you know how that goes.
The inactive period my bees have to endure is a little scary already. I have heard the Sunkist queens may not do well here in the North. My plan was to split my hives early, get a few of the strongest queens grafted and mated with local drones for a hardier bee that would stand a better chance for survival.


From the post above,
BeeHughshoney had a great idea I could just get virgin queens since I wanted to get their daughter queens mated with my local drones anyway. He contected Russell and they sent them out the same day. I'll give it a shot, sounds like another challenge to master:)
 
#28 ·
Re: Russell Queens

I hope when/if tragedy befalls you, no one cuts you any slack either.
Lots of opinions about Russell. I am done talking about it and won't respond to those that know nothing about the situation and are nasty.

Maybe before you voice your opinion you should read this thread.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268483-Russell-Queens

"There are so many grafts emerging every day that they don't have places for them because they over graft to be safe. They just throw them away."

That's what I was missing, the extra over grafts etc........

I was thinking something was wrong with this picture!!
And that works fine for me. Russell's are so stressed and overworked I felt bad about wanting my order, but I can't afford to throw away $200.+ ether. They got $$ for product they were going to throw away, and I got somethign for my money too. Hopefully it works well for both of us!
 
#25 ·
Re: Russell Queens

If the weather is warm (days & nites) I've introduced virgin queens on just emerging brood (no bees at all) and have a great success rate..........Actually I've used it with 100% success using mated queens also (again, warm days & nites)..........
 
#26 ·
Re: Russell Queens

"There are so many grafts emerging every day that they don't have places for them because they over graft to be safe. They just throw them away."

That's what I was missing, the extra over grafts etc........

I was thinking something was wrong with this picture!!
 
#29 · (Edited)
Re: Russell Queens

Queens arrived, the weather broke just long enough to install them. All went well except one flew away.
The buckfast were all acepted direct release. The sunkist were not accepted well and were installled in the shipping cage.

Remember in the post above I shook and brushed bees in to a deep box with 20 mini frames with a good sized starter strip. It worked well, here you can see I just took out each frame and placed it in the nuc between the two empty frames. Towards the end I used the frame and strip of foundation to scoop the bees up off the side and bottom of the box.


Baby nuc holds three half sized frame top bars, screened bottom with insert, Below you can see I put a quart heavy ziploc baggie with syrup for feeding. One very tiny poke in the top to let them feed


Here you see the baby nucs, a cardboard nuc divided in half to make two mating nucs and (I am ashamed to say it) top right you see 6 styrofoam coolers from the dollar store in case I get in a pinch for mating nucs.








Below you see the $1.00 cooler with glued on strip to hold frames. Hardware cloth will hold in a pollen patty in the excess room in the lid. Baggie feeder will go in the bottom. I poked a lot of additional holes for ventilation. These are very light weight and would crush easily. Not good for someone like me with a lab puppy! But if I use them they will be wedged in between potted plants for protection.
 
#30 ·
Re: Russell Queens

It is interesting that the one variety were easily accepted while the other not. I hope you will update the thread once the final results are in.
 
#31 ·
Re: Russell Queens

I was thinking perhaps the Buckfast's were a bit younger than the Sunkists? I have read newly hatched virgins are accepted better than older ones.
Yes, I took the half frame with about 3" of foundation filled with bees and turned it on it's side on top the mating box. Letting the Buckfast queen go in the center of the foundation, I watched for a minute or so and they just totally ignored the buckfast queens like they were just any other bee. The queens walked around in a relaxed mannor. The bees did not even give her a second look.

The Sunkist however attracted attention immediately. The queens acted intimidated by the bees and were very still while they surrounded her. Then a few started acting aggressive and trying to sting and ball her. I tried only two times and it was the same both times-so I just went to the shipping cage release method-poking a toothpick sized hole in the candy.

One note, the shook swarm was from two different hives and was only queenless for about 5 hours before the introduction. Russell's sent the virgins out overnight and I was not prepared for their quick response.

I had 8 Buckfasts and 12 Sunkist Northern Select

I wish I knew exactly what day these queens were hatched so I could confine them for the longest time. Not knowing, one day is probably max.
Yes, I will update with info and photos when I have something to share

Here is the method I used (Somewhat)
These are in a series and are amazingly informitive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlQ7mNmf6o&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwAiUJ4fdQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3lLihcBHkQ&feature=relmfu

Below is the video showing filling the mating nucs with bees and a virgin. I did not just shake her into the nuc as they do..theirs are probably newly hatched. I observed mine carefully with each introduction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV-3Bz7TNlU&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLczfL2bp8&feature=relmfu
 
#33 ·
Re: Russell Queens

I just went to the shipping cage release method-poking a toothpick sized hole in the candy.
Great job and thanks for posting your experience and methods.

Regarding poking a hole in the candy, I've stopped doing that a long ago (even for virgins) - particularly if the bees are showing signs of aggression. When aggression is shown, then slower is better. The difference is about 1 or 2 days, which can really make a difference in acceptance, and has little or no effect on mating.
 
#35 ·
Re: Russell Queens

Just checked my nucs in my nuc yard. Out of 13 virgins from Johnny I have 8 which took, 2 are queenless without cells, one may have a queen but didn't see her but there were several queen cells all torn down in the hive. And 2 others have queen cells and no queen. The math works for the queen cells. I think the AN is worth the effort. Several advantages that I see. No dead queens in the cages. Immediate release so you gain a few days in the breeding/laying cycle. No time for bees to start cells before the queen is in the hive. In 2 hives I used AN and put the virgin in with the other queens still present, one worked [two queens present] and one didn't. The queenless hive that I tried with AN was not successful. All-in-all I like the AN and I'm satisfied with the take in my nuc yard. I was a little nervous because the owner of the property has lots of bluebird and swallow bird houses and I was afraid many would get gobbled up. I think I'll stay with the virgins and AN. I have 4 mated queens coming next week. I'll use the AN to introduce them and see how that works. No blaming birds or dragon flies for them.
 
#38 ·
Re: Russell Queens

Checked my other nucs yesterday afternoon. Final results, out of 22 virgins, 12 have laying marked queens, which gives about a 55% success rate. If I had purchased 22 mated queens from the same supplier I would have spent $440.00 [$20 X 22] the virgins cost $110. Shipping is probably a wash. So if I got 100% success rate on the mated queens [hard to do] and my 55% in the virgins, I save good $. I wanted VSH queens so raising my own from splits was not an option for me.I also had to bank the virgins for about 4 - 6 days due to bad weather. I wonder if faster hiving would have helped a little?
 
#39 ·
Re: Russell Queens

I also had to bank the virgins for about 4 - 6 days due to bad weather. I wonder if faster hiving would have helped a little?
I'm getting some virgins from VPQueens in a few weeks. One batch of queens wouldn't arrive until 4 days after their emergence and it was decided to wait for another batch. Adam Finkelstein suggested that it would be difficult for 4-day old virgins to be accepted. I think he said it would be a waste...
 
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