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  1. #1
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    Default Shake out for Laying worker

    I have a laying worker hive and need to do a shakeout and introduce some more open brood.
    First will fresh laid eggs be considered as open brood or wait till larva forms?
    Second do the shakeout in morning, how much time does the colony need to get back to the reset empty hive?
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Eldersburg, MD, USA
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    The general advice is to add a frame of open brood (eggs count) every week for three weeks or until you see queen cells. From what I understand (hearing reported from others and reading on here) shakeouts don't work...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Do as suburban advises. No need to shake out normally after the second week they will start cells they will definatly have started them by the third.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Shakeouts of laying worker hives sometimes work, sometimes they don't. To improve the chances of it working substantially, I take the laying worker hive about 100 ft. away, and in its place put a hive body with nothing but combs stuffed full of honey or nectar and one frame of eggs. The trick is to not give the laying workers any place to lay if they make it back to the hive after shaking them out.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    That's funny. I've done a bunch of them and it always works.

  6. #6
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    robertsdale,Al.,USA
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    when you shake them out there are little clusters left on the ground.'tickle' them with a stick &the few left on the ground I stomp

  7. #7
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,593

    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    >I have a laying worker hive and need to do a shakeout and introduce some more open brood.
    First will fresh laid eggs be considered as open brood or wait till larva forms?

    You can shake them out if you like, but it's a waste of time in my experience. Just give them open brood every week fro three weeks. Eggs will do. The point is that it's not capped brood. The open brood pheromones are what suppress the laying workers.

    >Second do the shakeout in morning, how much time does the colony need to get back to the reset empty

    I don't follow the question. If you mean how long for them to find the hive again? They will find it before you finish shaking them out. All of them. Including the hundreds of laying workers.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    Sullivan, MO
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    901

    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    I haven't been patient enough lately to do the open brood 3 weeks in a row thing, so I just take a queen excluder on one of my stronger hives then put the box with the laying workers on top of that. After a few days things seem to get back to normal. Knock on wood I haven't lost a queen in the strong hive with this method yet. Then you can just do a split to get your hive back.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > The open brood pheromones are what suppress the laying workers.
    The laying workers have open brood so it must be open brood from another queen I suspect. Hypothetical ... If you had two laying worker hives and you swapped brood between both hives would they both stop laying?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #10
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,722

    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    It is the inhibitory effect of worker brood pheromone that is at work....

    And having worker brood (fertilized eggs) provides the larva for an emergency queen cell.
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  11. #11
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    May 2011
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    Livermore, CA
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    I wondered the same thing ACE, about the open drone brood and why it wouldnt suppress the laying workers? Does drone brood give off a different pheromone and its only those of worker brood that give off the pheromone to suppress the laying worker?

    Or is it the fact that in giving the laying worker hive open brood for three weeks prevents NEW laying workers from forming and by the third week the current laying workers turn into field bees and the hive forms queen cells out of the eggs from the last added frame of brood/eggs and the hive survives!
    Coyote Creek Bees

  12. #12
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    Lee\'s Summit, MO
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Carry the hive off 50 to 100 yards. Replace the hive with another queenright hive/nuc. Shake the bees out. As they head back to there old location they end up in a queenright hive and the laying workers stop/are eliminated. I've done it three times and it's always worked for me. Adding frames of eggs and larva never seemed to work though. Yea, queen cells are made, they look like they hatch but a queen never makes it to the laying stage for whatever reason. I waisted a lot of time and watched hives flounder learning this lesson.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  13. #13
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    Feb 2012
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    East Peoria, IL
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    398

    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Could you shake bees out into a new box with frames of bare foundation with a frame of open brood from another hive?

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    >The laying workers have open brood so it must be open brood from another queen I suspect.

    No, they just need worker brood.

    >Hypothetical ... If you had two laying worker hives and you swapped brood between both hives would they both stop laying?

    No. It would still be drone brood.

    >Could you shake bees out into a new box with frames of bare foundation with a frame of open brood from another hive?

    Why? You just need the frame of open brood from a queenright hive, shaking out accomplishes nothing. A new box accomplishes nothing.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    It is the inhibitory effect of worker brood pheromone that is at work....
    I had a feeling... I think it is quite remarkable that the bees can tell from smell the difference between a male egg and a female egg.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #16
    Join Date
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    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Here is some reading for you all:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_b...rint_pheromone
    Introduction

    Honey bees (Apis mellifera) have one of the most complex pheromonal communication systems found in nature, possessing 15 known glands that produce an array of compounds.[1][2] These chemical messengers secreted by a queen, drone, worker bee or laying worker bee to elicit a response in other bees. The chemical messages are received by the bee's antenna and other body parts. They are produced as a volatile or non-volatile liquid and transmitted by direct contact as a liquid or vapor.

    Honey bee pheromones can be grouped into releaser pheromones which temporarily affect the recipient's behavior, and primer pheromones which have a long-term effect on the physiology of the recipient. Releaser pheromones trigger an almost immediate behavioral response from the receiving bee. Under certain conditions a pheromone can act as both a releaser and primer pheromone.

    The pheromones may either be single chemicals or a complex mixture of numerous chemicals in different percentages.[3][4]

    [edit] Types of Honeybee Pheromones

    [edit] Alarm pheromone

    Two main alarm pheromones have been identified in honeybee workers. One is released by the Koschevnikov gland, near the sting shaft, and consists of more than 40 chemical compounds, including isopentyl acetate (IPA), butyl acetate, 1-hexanol, n-butanol, 1-octanol, hexyl acetate, octyl acetate, n-pentyl acetate and 2-nonanol. These chemical compounds have low molecular weights, are highly volatile, and appear to be the least specific of all pheromones. Alarm pheromones are released when a bee stings another animal, and attract other bees to the location and causes the other bees to behave defensively, i.e. sting or charge. It has been suggested that the alarm pheromone emitted when a bee stings another animal smells like bananas.[5] Smoke can mask the bees' alarm pheromone. The other alarm pheromone is released by the mandibular glands and consists of 2-heptanone, which is also a highly volatile substance. This compound has a repellent effect and it was proposed that it is used to deter potential enemies and robber bees. Interestingly, the amounts of 2-heptanone increase with the age of bees and becomes higher in the case of foragers. It was therefore suggested that 2-heptanone is used by foragers to scent-mark recently visited and depleted foragers, which indeed are avoided by foraging bees.

    [edit] Brood recognition pheromone

    Another pheromone is responsible for preventing worker bees from bearing offspring in a colony that still has developing young. Both larvae and pupae emit a "brood recognition" pheromone. This inhibits ovarian development in worker bees and helps nurse bees distinguish worker larvae from drone larvae and pupae. This pheromone is a ten-component blend of fatty-acid esters, which also modulates adult caste ratios and foraging ontogeny dependent on its concentration. The components of brood pheromone have been shown to vary with the age of the developing bee. An artificial brood pheromone was invented by Yves Le Conte, Leam Sreng, Jérome Trouiller, and Serge Henri Poitou and patented in 1996.

    [edit] Drone pheromone

    Drones produce a pheromone that attracts other flying drones to promote drone aggregations at sites suitable for mating with virgin queens.

    [edit] Dufour's gland pheromone

    The Dufour’s gland (named after the French naturalist Léon Jean Marie Dufour) opens into the dorsal vaginal wall. Dufour’s gland and its secretion have been somewhat of a mystery. The gland secretes its alkaline products in to the vaginal cavity, and it has been assumed to be deposited on the eggs as they are laid. Indeed, Dufour’s secretions allow worker bees to distinguish between eggs laid by the queen, which are attractive, and those laid by workers. The complex of as many as 24 chemicals differs between workers in "queenright" colonies and workers of queenless colonies. In the latter, the workers’ Dufour secretions are similar to those of a healthy queen. The secretions of workers in queenright colonies are long-chain alkanes with odd numbers of carbon atoms, but those of egg-laying queens and egg-laying workers of queenless colonies also include long chain esters.[6]

    [edit] Egg marking pheromone

    This pheromone, similar to that described above, helps nurse bees distinguish between eggs laid by the queen bee and eggs laid by a laying worker.

    [edit] Footprint pheromone

    This pheromone is left by bees when they walk and is useful in enhancing Nasonov pheromones in searching for nectar.

    In the queen, it is an oily secretion of the queen's tarsal glands that is deposited on the comb as she walks across it. This inhibits queen cell construction (thereby inhibiting swarming), and its production diminishes as the queen ages.

    [edit] Forager pheromone

    Ethyl oleate is released by older forager bees to slow the maturing of nurse bees.[7] This primer pheromone acts as a distributed regulator to keep the ratio of nurse bees to forager bees in the balance that is most beneficial to the hive.

    [edit] Nasonov pheromone

    This pheromone is emitted by the worker bees and used for orientation.

    [edit] Other pheromones

    Other pheromones produced by most honeybees include rectal gland pheromone, tarsal pheromone, wax gland and comb pheromone, and tergite gland pheromone.

    [edit] Types of Queen Honeybee Pheromones

    [edit] Queen mandibular pheromone (QMP)

    QMP, emitted by the queen, is one of the most important sets of pheromones in the bee hive. It affects social behaviour, maintenance of the hive, swarming, mating behaviour, and inhibition of ovary development in worker bees. The effects can be short and/or long term. Some of the chemicals found in QMP are carboxylic acids and aromatic compounds. The following compounds have been shown to be important in retinue attraction of workers to their queen (Slessor, 1988) and other effects.
    (E)-9-oxodec-2-enoic acid (9-ODA) - inhibits queen rearing as well as ovarian development in worker bees; strong sexual attractant for drones when on a nuptial flight; critical to worker recognition of the presence of a queen in the hive
    (R,E)-(-)-9-hydroxy-2-enoic acid (9-HDA) promotes stability of a swarm, or a "calming" influence
    (S,E)-(+)-9-HDA
    Methyl-p-hydroxybenzoate (HOB)
    4-hydroxy-3-methoxy phenylethanol (HVA)

    Early work on synthetic pheromones was done by Keith N. Slessor, Lori-ann Kaminski, Gaylord G. S. King, John H. Borden, and Mark L. Winston; their work was patented in 1991. Synthetic queen mandibular pheromone (QMP) is a mixture of five components 9-ODA , (-) isomer (9-HDA), (+) isomer of (9-HDA), HOB and HVA in a ratio of 118:50:22:10:1.

    [edit] Queen retinue pheromone (QRP)

    The following compounds have also been identified,[8] of which only coniferyl alcohol is found in the mandibular glands. The combination of the 5 QMP compounds and the 4 compounds below is called the Queen Retinue Pheromone (QRP). These nine compounds are important for the retinue attraction of worker bees around their queen.
    methyl (Z)-octadec-9-enoate (methyl oleate)
    (E)-3-(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-prop-2-en-1-ol (coniferyl alcohol)
    hexadecan-1-ol
    (Z9,Z12,Z15)-octadeca-9,12,15-trienoic acid (linolenic acid)

    [edit] References listed alphabetically by author
    Imrie, George Georg Imrie's, Pink Pages Nov. 1999
    Katzav-Gozansky, Tamar Apidologie 33 (2002) 525–537
    Blum, M.S. 1992. Honey bee pheromones in The Hive and the Honey Bee, revised edition (Dadant and Sons: Hamilton, Illinois), pages 385-389.
    Boch, R. and D.A. Shearer. 1971. Chemical releasers of alarm behaviour on the honey-bee, Apis mellifera. Journal of Insect Physiology 17, 2277-2285
    Butler, C. 1609. The Feminine Monarchie. On a Treatise Concerning Bees, and the Due Ordering of them. Joseph Barnes: Oxford.
    Free, John B., Pheromones of social bees. Ithaca, N.Y.: Comstock, 1987.
    Imrie, George George Imrie's Pink Pages November 1999 accessed Feb. 2005
    Keeling, C. I., Slessor, K. N., Higo, H. A. and Winston, M. L. (2003) Isolation and identification of new components of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) queen retinue pheromone. Proc National Academy of Science USA 100: 4486-4491.
    Leoncini, I., Le Conte, Y., Costagliola, G., Plettner, E., Toth, A. L., Wang, M., Huang, Z., Bécard, J.-M., Crauser, D., Slessor, K. N. and Robinson, G. E. (2004) Regulation of behavioral maturation by a primer pheromone produced by adult worker honey bees. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 101: 17559-17564.
    Maschwitz, U., 1964. Alarm substances and alarm behavior in social Hymenoptera, Nature 204, 324-327.
    Moritz, R.F.A. and H. Burgin. 1987. Group response to alarm pheromones in socialwasps and the honeybees. Ethology 76, 15-26
    Slessor, K. N., Kaminski, L.-A., King, G. G. S., Borden, J. H. and Winston, M. L. (1988) Semiochemical basis of the retinue response to queen honey bees. Nature 332: 354-356.
    Vander Meer, R.K. et al. 1998. Pheromone Communication in Social Insects; Boulder: Westview Press
    Wager, B.R. and M.D. Breed. 2000. Does honeybee sting alarm pheromone give orientation information to defensive bees? Annals of the Entomological Society of America 93(6), 1329-1332
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Quote Originally Posted by rweakley View Post
    I just take a queen excluder on one of my stronger hives then put the box with the laying workers on top of that. After a few days things seem to get back to normal. Knock on wood I haven't lost a queen in the strong hive with this method yet. Then you can just do a split to get your hive back.
    My preferred method also. Just, the excluder is a must, to stop the queen accidentally moving into a bunch of unfriendly bees, and I normally leave it 2 weeks before I'll disturb it again, not saying a few days won't work just I've never tried that.

    Nothing wrong with the other method of feeding them brood for several weeks, just, like all things bees, there's often more than one way to skin a cat.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Salt Lake County, Utah
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    50

    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    If you aren't trying to "fix" the hive, and have other hives near by, wouldn't shaking them out 100 yards or so away be ok? The workers from the LW hive would fly back, not find their hive, and eventually join one of the neighbor hives, right?

    I just feel funny about stealing 3-4 thousand bees from a strong hive for three weeks. I get that there is a good chance of that hive getting a queen, but wouldn't it be the same to shake them out, without replacing the hive. then a week later split one of the neighboring hives, taking the same 3 frames of brood, but saving a week's worth of time.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Which way you want to go is probably going to depend a lot on the size of the hive with the problem and your overall situation. If the LW hive is a nuc then it's pretty easy to shake it out - if it's a big strong hive it's probably easier to add brood. If you have a lot hives in the yard shaking them out and letting them drift works great. If you only have 2 hives you might be more committed to fixing the queenless hive - although that might not realy be the best choice. It's good to be aware of the options.

    Dabbling in queen rearing has really fast forewarded my bee keeping. Caring for a bunch of mating nucs quickly familiarizes you with all of the problems associated with weak/queenless hives - and how to deal with them. Sorry - off topic.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Suffolk, VA
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    Default Re: Shake out for Laying worker

    Quote Originally Posted by OSafado View Post
    If you aren't trying to "fix" the hive, and have other hives near by, wouldn't shaking them out 100 yards or so away be ok? The workers from the LW hive would fly back, not find their hive, and eventually join one of the neighbor hives, right?

    This is exactly the technique that I have been advocating for a while. Its important that you shake the bees out and NOT put the hive back in its original location, as is advocated in a conventional shake out. Instead, you distribute the LW boxes across your apiary on top of strong queenright hives and leave the old location vacant. Problem solved immediately. You can then later pull splits and get back the queenright colony.

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