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Deformed Wing Virus

27K views 57 replies 23 participants last post by  ky_mike 
#1 ·
I have seen bees outside my hives that have DWV. It's raining today so I was able to get a close look at the front of the hive and saw probably 10 bees walking in front of it with obvious DWV. I have seen bees with it before and have treated about 3 times with powdered sugar. In all of my hive inspections I have not seen a bee on any of the frames inside the hive with deformed wings, but I have seen a few mites, which is why I did the powdered sugar dumps.

My question is do I need to be worried about a few bees with DWV or is it normal?
 
#3 ·
DWV is different than frayed wings. With DWV the whole wing is shrivled looking instead of just being frayed on the ends.
Yes, you should be worried. You need to do some kind of mite count to find out just how many mites are in the hive. Do a sticky board count, ether roll, or a sugar shake to get a mite count.
 
#4 ·
DWV is not normal, so it's something you need to address. You do not mention any mite numbers, so I assume you do not monitor via counts for them. Do you have screen bottom boards? Start counting mites. 24 hour drop w/ no treatment, then a 24 and 48 hour drop w/ a powdered sugar treatment. Dusting 3 times w/ PS will not provide enough of a drop to get control. Dust a least once a week for 6 to 8 weeks, and keep count.
If this were my hive, I'd pull the queen with a frame of bees in a nuc, and put in mite away quick strips.

cpm, old bees look old, (no cute fuzzy hair on their thorax), often a bit darker in color, and may have frayed wings. DWV will cause the wings to spread away from the body or just the lack of wings that look like wings and more like crumpled paper.
 
#6 ·
I just took these photos so you can see what it looks like





I only have 2 hives. One has a SBB and the other doesn't. What do I use for the sticky board? I have been considering MAQ's but I can't find a place that sells less than enough to treat 10 hives and I only have 2.

Other than the bees with DWV the hive seems very healthy and is full of bees.
 
#7 ·
So I just inspected my hive without the SBB so I could pull some drone cells. I wasn't sure what you meant by "purple headed" but once I pulled them I figured it out. Unfortunately I pulled 7 and 6 had mites on them.



As soon as I pulled one of the drones out a mite crawled out and hitched a ride on this workers back



And I found a few bees on frames that had deformed wings. Here is a better shot..



This hive was a split that I made from my only other hive on April 4th and let them raise their own queen.

So from all I've read Mite Away Quick strips seem to be the treatment I am going to try. I went ahead and put a sticky board under my main hive which consists of 2 deeps and a short honey super on top. The super is almost full and capped so I guess I will be alright waiting until I extract before I treat that one?
 
#8 ·
After treating this hive with MAQS, I would put on a pollen substitute and syrup to stimulate the queen to lay a lot of brood. They will need it to recover if indeed it is not too late allready. I would also reccomend that you treat your other hive. If one has that bad a varroa problem, you can bet the other is not far behind. The good news is that if you can burn the mites and then get the queen laying (hence the pollen sub) you may be able to save the hive. It is a long time till winter. Good luck
 
#9 ·
Take this for what it is worth, in my experience the presence of DWV does not mean the hive is doomed. I have had bees crawling around in the grass with DWV every year for the last four years, but you would never know anything is wrong with any of my hives. They are all strong extremely productive hives and overwinter just fine. I don't treat with anything including powdered sugar and do no mite checks whatsoever. If you see evidence of DWV in otherwise perfectly normal hives I think that pouring the chemicals to them is simply ridiculous.
 
#10 ·
I was kind of wondering about this. The hive seems very healthy other than the deformed winged bees. I'm still not 100% sure on what to do but it seems the consensus is to treat. The thing that worries me the most is almost every drone cell I opened had a mite in it and I don't think they will get any better with summer right around the corner.

The split that I made seems healthy and they have filled out almost all of the brood box with comb and it is full of honey, pollen and brood. The other hive is full of the same and almost has a full super of honey.

Decisions, decisions :scratch:
 
#12 ·
JRG13, when I got back into bees four years ago I bought southern Italian packages, nothing special. Yes, I think my bees have some resistance, but how do you think they got it? I have never requeened with resistant stock, any queens that were raised by the bees just open mated with whatever is in the area, that's it. I faced mite pressure four years ago and every year thereafter, and did nothing, and here I am today without any mite related losses, so how does anyone know that Ky Mike's bees are doomed without immediate treatments? You don't, and I think that continuing to recommend chemical treatments to people who's bees have certain mite levels or visible DWV is not the way to go if we want to have resistant bees at some point in the future. It's like treating your whole 3 acre lawn at the sight of one dandelion blossom, like I said before, its ridiculous, and in my opinion irresponsible. John
 
#13 ·
You need to treat. Viruses are caused from stressers and in this case it is mites. Keep the mites under control and the stress is reduced. The levels are at a threshold that if you do nothing your hive will fail. I am all for resistant stock and raise some myself but in this case at this time from what he has shown us the prudent thing would be to use something. maqs comes to mind.

JMGI will you pay for new bees if he follows your advice?
 
#14 ·
I have not used any treatments except powder sugar dumps and removing a frame of drone brood from each hive. I dont plan on eradicating Varroa, although it would be nice of course, but if I can keep their numbers in check and the hive is able to survive and produce bees/honey, im good with that. If I happen to lose a hive to Varroa, i'll replace it with a swarm catch or a split, but I dont intend on treating my hives at all, and its a risk im willing to take I suppose.

To each there own.
 
#15 ·
First of all I appreciate everyone's input. I knew before posting my problem that there would be differing opinions of what to do. I'm in my 2nd year of beekeeping and have enjoyed the whole experience (minus a few stings :D)

I just pulled my sticky board and counted 47 mites on the board. The board was actually only on 20 hrs. The hive was untreated when I put the board under it and I obviously didn't make the board sticky enough (1st time sticky boarder) because I observed ants carrying away some of the mites when I pulled it and mites crawling around on the board so it's hard to say how many were eaten/crawled away. I read to use spray cooking oil on the board and I only had spray olive oil because my wife is on a health kick :(. Next time I will use vaseline....regardless, 47 seems like a high number to me. I'll clean the sticky board dump some powdered sugar on them and get another count tonight with a stickier sticky board. I don't think I'll be surprised by a large mite count doing this so I am coming up with a plan of action.

Right now it's obvious that the SBB's are having at least somewhat of an impact on getting rid of mites, so I will be building another SBB for my other hive. I think I will initially treat with either MAQ's or Hopguard and after reading a lot of Michael Bush's information I'm going to start introducing foundationless frames to my hives as a long term preventative. I wish I would have read about the foundationless frames before I got started in beekeeping.

I'll keep this thread updated as I go and again I appreciate everyone's input.

Also if anyone knows of a MAQ distributor that sells less than a 10 hive box of the strips let me know.
 
#16 ·
I'm in Jmgi s' court.
People are going to keep bees they way they want and what works for them. Beeks set their own goals and determine what "success" is. For some, it is survival of the hive at all costs. Others, it is above average honey crop.
For me, I like going up stream in a leaky boat and no paddles. The learning curve is steep, frustrations abound, but the rewards, for me, are far superior than some means others use. I learn a lot real fast. Like Jimgi, I have not had any losses due to mites, in four years. No treatments or manipulations to purposely break mites.( break in brood cycle ect.) Is it luck? Maybe in the sense I catch swarms and lucked into some resistant stock. Most species in nature respond in some way to pressure be it positive or negative. Treating alleviates that pressure. You will never know.
 
#17 ·
Mike,

Make you're choice based on what you are comfortable with.

If you decide to treat then you can be fairly sure of the outcome. Treating does have it's negative side effects and takes a toll on the bees, but it knocks down the mites and gives the bees a fighting chance.

Not treating, it's a 50/50 shot you will be successful. If we could all have success with a hands off approach then it would be a no brainer. Some people try the no treatment route and experience total losses. It's not a very good feeling to watch mites completely wipe out your colonies and leave you empty handed. Ask me how I know. On the other hand some people, in some areas, are very successful without treatment. You may be one of the lucky ones as well. There is only one way to find out. Just be prepared for either outcome if you decide to let nature take it's course.
 
#18 ·
People who don't monitor their mite levels and and develope a plan to deal with them are called Bee Supply Customers! Now if you have bought and can maintian vsh hives, that changes things some. It may be all you need til your vsh queen is superceded and her sucessor does not pass on the trait. Most need to do something, be it brood breaks, drone sacrifice, Essential Oils or some other chemical. Like Mr. Gilmore said, don't be a spectator.
 
#19 ·
Maybe a reality check is in order here. If one does not have good strong stock, that is healthy, then the odds IMHO, are most likely dismal. I don't like comparing bugs to humans, but I'll digress. If you had pneumonia, the flu, or any ill health, and decided to fumigate your home for roaches, would you stay in your home ? If you did , would you be less healthy in the aftermath?
Allowing a hive to push the mite limit with some reasonable expectation of recovery, is not a walk a way, come back later and expect a miracle. Think about what circumstances would be in place, and have to happen in a "wild" unattended bee colony. (no they do not have to be in a tree :)
I'm not an expert. I'm offering my HO, what I've researched, and I have a hive that went through this, survived, and is booming as we speak.
Best to you in what ever you decide.
 
#20 ·
JMGI,

I respect your opinion on the matter. But first off I didn't recommend any chemical treatments, I just said he should treat. Plenty of organic options available (vaporized mineral oil, powdered sugar, brood break...ect.) I would just rather see some attempt to try to clean up the mites and break the cycle. Maybe he gets mites again but maybe he doesn't get any DWV, I would say that's a real improvement. Just from experience though, as I said, having a resevoir of virus in you hives is not good for the long run. You're just askiing for it to become a breaking strain against any resistances you have. Rick you have a great point as well as far as personal goals ect... Good luck with your hive(s) Mike, keep us updated.
 
#21 ·
Mike,

I agree that whether to treat or not is a personal decision and up to each of us to make. I can say that my own personal experience with DWV led me to become a "treater" (with MAQ's). I wanted to comment on three concerns you mentioned if you do decide to treat.

(1) Maq's will keep indefinitely in a freezer. Ten is a lot for a hobbiest beekeeper to buy and I put my excess in the freezer for next year.
(2) You will need to make a decision very soon as temperatures are approaching the upper limit which is 92 degrees F.
(3) I would treat both hives at once. I guess it is due to drifting but mites appear to move quickly from one hive to the other.

Oldtimer has written a lot of good information on DWV and "crawlers" on various threads on this site. I learned a lot from him and you may want to read some of his postings.

Best of luck to you.
 
#22 ·
Well I ended up ordering Hop guard. It seems from all of the reading I've done to be less harsh than the Maq's.

I put another sticky board under my hive again today (with vaseline on it this time) and after just a few hours I peeked under the hive and saw several mites on it already and several more bees with DWV crawling around in the grass around the hive.

It would be great if I didn't have to treat but from my limited experience with bees and taking all of the posts in this thread and others into consideration it's just my gut feeling that it's the right thing to do. It would be very discouraging to lose my hives to this.

My goal right now is just to have healthy bees. I'm close to getting my first super of honey from them and if that's all I get I'll be happy. Long term I would like to have bees that are mite resistant and I'll work towards that, but I'm sure that's everyone's long term goal.

The main reasons I decided to treat with something stronger than powdered sugar is obviously the amount of bees I'm now seeing with DWV, the amount of mites I'm now seeing and the amount of mites I'm seeing in my split already, even though they did have a break in the brood cycle by me letting them raise their own queen.

Thanks again for all your input.
 
#41 ·
I had a couple hives last fall that had the same symptoms as you have described. They also acted depressed they just sat around like they were sick. Brood production had dropped alot because of being in the fall. I used HopGuard and I really was impressed. In a week they were like a totally different hive. Now I would rather not treat my hives. I would like to be able to say that I have bees that need no treatment. My thinking was to go ahead and save the hives but requeen with something better and not treat again and see how it turns out. I had 8 hives last fall came out this spring with 8 hives. Now I have 25 hives I have not treated since that time. I have not seen any symptoms or signs of high mite counts since. One hive that I got from catching a swarm has a few mites, but nothing bad yet. Most of my bees are tolerant to mites, but they are prone to swarm. All of my bees have came from wild caught swarms except for two hives and some have came from cutouts. I plan on raising some queens out of a Glenn Apiaries Breeder Queen that I have and improve on my wild caught strains. In my opinion not treating and just letting the hive struggle and probably not making it through the winter would be a waste of time and money. Save the colony and requeen it with something better is going to be my system.
One thing about the HopGuard though is that it will not kill the mites in the cells MAQS will and MAQS will get tracheal mites too.
I also started off with natural comb I just used a guide to get the bees started, but I would not recommend it. I found that If I did not inspect at least once a week the comb got really messed up sometimes. So I changed over to the Mann Lake Standard plastic frames with the small cell foundation. I had read a million horror stories about plastic foundation, but I can tell you there is nothing wrong with the stuff Im using. I just coated them good with 1-1 sugar water and dropped them in. They draw them out just fine. Only thing is I wish I could get that foundation in sheets and put it in a wood frame, but Mann Lake does not make that foundation like that.
 
#24 ·
rainsridgefarm, I respect your opinion on this matter, however, you are speaking in definite terms when you say that his hive will fail at these mite levels. There is no certainty about anything here. I have encountered many beeks here on this forum who speak this way when they say "your hive WILL fail" if you don't treat, and nothing is further from the truth. Yes, there is a possibility that they MAY fall to mites, but it is not an absolute certainty that they WILL. I personally think that beeks who treat should not tell people such as ky mike that their hives will WILL fail, this has happened a multitude of times here on this forum, and its not reality. And no, I don't think I should be monetarily responsible for anyone's mite losses if they decide to not treat based on my opinion, are you serious?
 
#28 ·
With all due respect to all on this thread and their respective opinions, this type of discussion is healthy IMHO. Those insisting treatments, chem or no, is no more correct than those advocating the opposite or something different to an individual.. Allowing nature to take its' course when you are new or only have a few hives is a tough line to draw in the sand and stick to it. When I did it, I just decided how I wanted to keep bees. More importantly, to me, how I did not want to keep bees, and committed to it. Then, I got lucky and caught a swarm. It has worked, so far, for me. Didn't happen over night either. Against the advice of many experienced opinions on this forum, I let a mite infested hive take it's course. My choice. It made it.
It all boils down to what an individual decides is "beekeeping" to them MO. Just because you don't deal with your hives they way I do, doesn't make you wrong, me right, or you right me wrong. I will agree to disagree with you though:) Everyone can still learn something new:)
 
#29 ·
Being new to beekeeping and the fact that I right now only have 2 hives played a major role in my decision to treat. I have spent a huge amount of time reading and taking care of the hives I have (just ask my wife:D) I have built most of my own equipment and I would hate to not treat, lose the hives and have to start from scratch. Down the road when I have 10 or 15 hives I will feel safer letting nature take it's course and see what happens.

In my opinion there is no right or wrong answer whether to treat or not. I think that it's obvious by the conflicting opinions you not only read here but most beekeeping sites. By starting this thread I knew there would be conflicting opinions, but I wanted to here them from people who have a lot more experience than I do to help me make my decision. Personally I would like to not treat, but in my current situation I think it's the right thing to do.

On a side note doing mite counts was something I didn't realize was so important until now. I check the inside of my hives every 7-10 days and probably only saw less than 5 mites up until I pulled the drone brood out. I have very good eyesight but still couldn't see any. The sticky board really shocked me. Obviously there are many mites falling out of my SBB's everyday and I wasn't aware of it.

I also built and installed an SBB for my other hive yesterday. There was a bunch of activity in front of the hive yesterday, almost like they were re-orienting and today them seem to like their new screen floor and seem more active coming in and out.
 
#30 ·
Since you're going to treat the discussion of whether or not too is moot...That said, if six of seven drone pupae had mites AND you're seeing DWV bees walking around, that hive IMO is in big trouble.

Treat then feed pollen subs or the real stuff and get as many mite "free" brood cycles you can before winter.
 
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