Russell? Beating a dead horse?

[jim lyon]

I have not seen his operation in person, I have not worked for him, and I have not shadowed him. If you want to say it's all speculation and conjecture, I'm fine with that, but as it stands I think that's the best information you are going to receive on this site.

I think its safe to say that there is a lot we don't know about his operation. Nobody ever seems to have any first hand eye witness accounts of anything thats happened over there.
Lets start with the facts as we know them: He has a lot of loyal customers who seem fine with any delays that they have encountered getting bees because they are convinced that the superior genetics they will be getting make it worth the wait. We know that he has a really nice web site where you can place orders for bees and other items and pay for them at the time of ordering via pay pal. Bee orders (and payments) are apparently accepted at least a year ahead of delivery. We know that a lot of people have waited a long time for orders and are running out of patience because they have been unable to contact anyone. We know some people think the Russell bees are great, some refer to them as just another bee, and some have had poor success with them. We know that when Mr. Russell was posting on here he seemed articulate and knowledgable about all things beekeeping. We also know that he has claimed to have suffered through, tornadoes, floods, cold spells and now apparently a personal tragedy all in just over a year.
Thats essentially what I know, everything else seems to be conjecture. I also have spent some time trying to find some information out about this current tragedy and have come up empty. While doing it I was haunted by the realization that I didnt know whether to hope that I found something or hope that I didnt. I am sorry but this is all seems a bit strange to me.

[camero7]

I'm curious why we never hear from or know who the huge beekeepers are who order thousands of queens and nucs from him. Seems like one at least would have come to his defense.

[Vance G]

THose large orders are too busy running big business to be stooging around on this forum! What we have here are retirees and government employees and beginners leavened by a few working people. Some major mismanaging going on there and I don't need much more of the drama myself. It looks like my Memorial day plans will be scratched because queens might be coming in. I can do something to correct this another year. Just don't kick someone when they are down. Late bees are nothing new! My first bees were singles ordered for early May that showed up as two or three struggling frame splits in decrepit equipment in the Middle of June! Nothing new here, except a place to whine to others. A guy by the name of Lawler from Valley City N.D. administered that fleecing! Ancient history and this will be too.

[camero7]

Seems to me we'd know who some of these big beeks are. There are several large beekeepers on this forum and I know others that visit occasionally but don't post. No one seems to know who they are. Not saying they don't exist, just seems strange to me. And that's not kicking someone when they're down. That's just asking a honest question.

[ShawnL]

According to Victoria, SKC's will ship "end of this upcoming week/beginning of the next". We'll see.

[jim lyon]

I'm curious why we never hear from or know who the huge beekeepers are who order thousands of queens and nucs from him. Seems like one at least would have come to his defense.

I have wondered the same thing. For what its worth I am not aware of any. Most of the large operations that I know of are using cells in the south. There is, however, a pretty big market post almond for mated queens among pollinators who would miss out on a contract by letting their bees be tied up too long waiting for queens to mate, also a lot of beekeepers who choose to bring their bees directly back to their northern location after they are released from the almonds and make up their losses via mated queens. Hawaiian queen producers have tapped into this mostly April market because it is difficult for southern producers to have the numbers to meet the demand.

[camero7]

All of the large beekeepers on the east coast that I'm aware of use their own queens or generally use Miksa's cells. Of course the big beekeepers are generally not on the east coast. I did inquire of a well-known large beekeeper in the midwest and he had never heard of Russell.

[swarm_trapper]

Well i ordered 100 Italians this spring for some splits to try them and see if they lived up the the hype, i waited for them two weeks after they were supposed to be delivered i then finally was told about the storms and that they would not be here till a week or two, so not being able to wait a month from when they were supposed to be split, i told them to cancel and refund my money. So far im still waiting with no response to my emails, if any one from russells reads this please contact me i need my 2000$ back thank you. From what i hear they have had a lot of problems and i understand a few delays but how about a response to an email is that too much?
Nick Groenhof

[giant pumpkin peep]

4. Finally, I don't mean to sound callous, but - if a car really did swerve across the highway, hit a bee truck AND kill two people in his operation - how come I can not find ANY mention of it in any online press sources. Bee trucks ALWAYS make big news when they have problems. Where is the link? I have found minor bee truck accidents (that didn't involve fatalities) still on the net going back to 2008 - where is this one?
If bees were not on the truck at the time of the accident, it's likely you wouldn't be able to tell what collision it was (especially if all we know is that it occurred somewhere between Oregon and Ohio . . . and Doc was three states away). I don't know if bees were on the truck or not. Just a thought

Heard from doc. There were no bees on the truck as they where going to get their first load. It makes me sick to think someone was thinking the tradegy was made up.

[jim lyon]

Heard from doc. There were no bees on the truck as they where going to get their first load. It makes me sick to think someone was thinking the tradegy was made up.

I am not sure that accusation is actually being made at this point. When a beekeeper and his son are killed in an accident its a pretty big story especially when it happens in such a small industry. Its only natural curiosity to wonder who the victims are and who else might know them. Its also pretty easy to document and a little odd that no one has yet been able to do it. One way or the other its just really upsetting.

[GWDawg1]

These people - Russell - have more excuses than can be counted. They have more destructive weather than anyone I have ever heard of, and I live in MS. A well respected member of the beekeeping community here in MS told me last year to stay away from Russell. Take it for what it's worth.

[Roland]

If he produces most of his queens in Mississippi - how can he claim that he has northern acclimated queens?

I believe in a PM he mentioned working with a beekeeper in cherries in Door county(the little finger on the hand of the state), who would evaluate his stock.

Crazy Roland

[spunky]

I ordered 1 sunkist queen from him on March 7th this year. Recieved it the first week in April, no problems, alive, in good shape and was shipped on a monday as promised. His website/forum is a great place for a alot of knowledge and insite into bee genetics .

[Daniel Y]

4. Finally, I don't mean to sound callous, but - if a car really did swerve across the highway, hit a bee truck AND kill two people in his operation - how come I can not find ANY mention of it in any online press sources.

The news never reports all the news. they report what fits in their time slot. Even tragic events. Most of them by far, are never reported.

Bee trucks ALWAYS make big news when they have problems.
Oh really? and just exactly how are you aware of every accident involving a bee truck? And exactly how did you confirmed that every single one has been reported? I know of at least three this year alone here in Nevada that never had a peep said about them in any news story printed radio or television.

[Broke-T]

Specialkayme, in response to the approved list in MS. Every beekeeper in MS who produces queens, packages ,or nucs for sale must be inspected by MS Dept of Ag. They will give you a certificate of inspection to accompany each shipment. It looks like this.

CERTIFICATION OF INSPECTION FOR PACKAGE BEES
AND / OR QUEEN BEES
MISSISSIPPI DEPT. OF AGRICULTURE & COMMERCE
BUREAU OF PLANT INDUSTRY
P.O. BOX 5207, MISSISSIPPI STATE, MS 39762
THIS IS TO CERTIFY THAT THE APIARIES OF:
BROKE T APIARIES
JOHNNY THOMPSON
13340 HIGHWAY 488
PHILADELPHIA, MS 39350
(601) 562-0701
HAVE BEEN INSPECTED AND FOUND TO BE APPARENTLY FREE FROM AMERICAN & EUROPEAN FOULBROOD. PARASITIC MITES & THE SMALL HIVE BEETLE ARE ENDEMIC IN MISSISSIPPI. SAID APIARIES ARE FREE OF AFRICANIZATION BASED ON 100% OF QUEEN MOTHERS WERE ANALYZED USING THE FABIS FRESH WEIGHT METHOD. THESE APIARIES WILL BE INSPECTED AT REGULAR INTERVALS. THIS CERTIFICATE EXPIRES MARCH 15, 2013.
JOHN G. CAMPBELL, DIRECTOR


If you purchase bees from out of state they should be inspected in the state they were produced in and a health certificate should accompany the order.

Johnny

[NDnewbeek]

Specialkayme -

Thank you for your for your answers, I appreciate it. I do have a couple more questions/observations that they have generated:

I'm actually surprised how short that list is. Think about it. None of the large operations are on that list: Glenn, Kona, Hardeman, Jester, Kelley, either of the Weavers, Gardner's, H&R, Purvis, Rossman . . . the list goes on.

Unless that list is only meant to be people IN MS that can sell to people in MS . . . but that seems like a dumb list to me. And if that's the case why couldn't Russell just "ship" his queens in from a different state?



I think that's more a question for the department of agriculture . . . or an agricultural attorney.

I think that Broke-T answered this one.

If you want the answer straight from the horses mouth, go check out the forums on his site. He has explained it before.

If you want a summation, he won't provide it here. But I will. He sells queens to people all over the country. Some of those individuals run commercial operations in the north. He has arrangements with some of those commercial operations that they buy queens from Russell. Then the best queens that make it through the winter, and have shown themselves to be the most winter hardy are returned back to Russell (usually for a discount on future orders, or for a trade of other queens). Russell then takes these northern queens, that appear to be the best of the last shipment, at least as far as winter hardiness goes, and mates them together. He then re-sells those bees to northern operations, and repeats the process all over again.

You have to become a member of his forum in order to view most of the material. I am not interested, so I can't get the info.

With respect to the strategy though - how much of overwinter success then is genetics and how much is beekeeper management? Does Russell ensure that every beekeeper he buys back from runs bees in the north the same way (open vs. closed bottom board, upper entrance or no, sugar feeding or no, wrapping hives vs. no wrapping, etc.). If he doesn't - then he can't sort out whether overwinter success is due to genetics or management. As a scientist with a Ph.D. - he would know this.

As a northern beekeeper - I have pulled some hives through winter, but I wouldn't consider their queens 'northern acclimated'. They just got through because I babied them. Do any two beekeepers manage their hives the same? Probably not. IMO (and I have the same degree as Russell) - if he isn't controlling for all the different management strategies out there - then it is scientifically unsound to claim that the queens are genetically 'northern acclimated'. It would be more accurate to describe them as having survived X# winters in the north.

Doc has a very good understanding of bee genetics and climate zones in the US. He knows what strains dominate the feral population. He has been known to cross certain strains with others in the attempt to create a very local strain. For example, he was explaining to me at one point that he took a carni cross with an AMM cross (and added something else) and shipped them to Eastern TN for their mountainous region. He explained how the AMM dominated the feral population in the area (spreading from the coast of NC) and the carni helped with the mountainous region. I don't remember what the additional cross was, or why it was added, but a few years ago I bought out a hobby beekeeper in Eastern TN. I took his hives home and explained their tendencies to Doc. Without knowing where I went (But knowing I lived in NC) he guessed the region that I bought them from. A very amazing skill.

True - but even the most accomplished geneticist is not able to predict which genes are passed to progeny, which will be expressed or even be able to tell you all of the factors that result in the expression of a gene. Making an organism isn't like combining ingredients for a soup. What you describe above is not science, it is more akin to magic (which is why, I suspect, there are so many who are critical of his operation). Without actually raising those types of queens in that region and evaluation their performance over (at least) several seasons - to many, it is disingenuous to claim that you now have a bee 'adapted' to the mountains of Tennessee.

I know that he is not directly conducting the grafting, raising, and evaluation of EVERY queen that his operation produces. He will be at certain yards on certain days to oversee production. He tries to take a very hands on approach, and likes to be the one approving whether the queen is up to par for shipment, or if she should be culled. Due to the size of the operation, I know that isn't possible for every queen.

Then are you really getting one of HIS queens? There seems to be a lot of 'gray' in his operation. He doesn't evaluate his 'northern acclimated' overwinter survivors personally, they just get sent back to him if they live through a northern winter, he doesn't evaluate all of his Sunkist or Carni's or AMMs, etc. Are consumers then really benefiting from his education and experience if his operation is so big that he can't supervise or run it all directly? To be sure, this is probably the way many big operations are run (Gardner's, Wilbanks, etc.). But then, they also don't charge premium prices for their queens and they aren't selling queens on the reputation of a single individual. Customers recognize this trade-off. Again, I think that this might be why there is so much criticism.

If bees were not on the truck at the time of the accident, it's likely you wouldn't be able to tell what collision it was (especially if all we know is that it occurred somewhere between Oregon and Ohio . . . and Doc was three states away). I don't know if bees were on the truck or not. Just a thought.

True also - my impression from the original posting of this information in another thread was that bees were on the truck. That assumption though may be in error. Still, if a link becomes available - I would like to see it. As a skeptic in most things, it seems to me that his operation has had a particularly long string of bad luck.

For many of us, it isn't the $40 queen that has anything to do with the loyalty. It's the customer service we received. In the past the Doc has helped me out so much, and has asked nothing in return. While I was still in school all I could afford was two queens. I told the Doc that I wanted to start breeding, but I didn't have the funds to get any breeder queens, or equipment, or mating nucs, or any of the like. Doc sent me a set of different kinds of grafting tools (so I could see which one I liked the most) a variety of different kinds of queens (Carni, Buckfast, and Cauc) that I didn't pay for, just to increase the genetic material of which I could select from. When he found out I didn't have enough equipment to run anything more than a few mating nucs, he offered to send me some cardboard nucs, and some stocked nucs, free of charge, to help me get a boost. I denied the last, as I thought it was too much.

Seeing someone that gives so much, and cares so much about the beekeeping industry, it hurts when people say hurtful things about him. I can understand being frustrated about queen orders (other than the "I ordered a queen and said I want it on the 7th and it's the 14th and I still don't have it" mentality), especially this year after all the bad luck. But when individuals say he is conning them, or stealing their money, or doing a dis-service to them individually or the beekeeping community, that's just hurtful. All he wants to do is help people, and the beekeeping industry, as well as pass on his knowledge so others can get into (or prosper in) this amazing activity.

I understand this. My graduate advisor was much the same way. I would get plenty upset myself if I heard people disparaging his work. I am sure that what you say about Russell's nature and dedication to beekeeping is true. However (and I say this in an effort to be constructive, not disparaging) - even good people/scientists can have poor methodologies, bad management practices, make improper assumptions (even I may have done that above!), etc. I think for many of the critics - there are things about Russell's operation (some I have pointed out above) that just don't pass the 'sniff test' (and I will admit to being one of these). Now that he is having problems filling orders, this serves are verification of suspicions (this doesn't necessarily apply to me -but I do find it curious).

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions.

Mike

[beekeeper120]

Well I have had good luck with Dr. Russell. I ordered an SKC in Oct 2011 got my queen May 3rd. I did have some concern when orders that were placed in January 2012 were delivered before me, But a quick email from them told me it was software issue and my order was shipped on May 1.

When the SKC queen I recieved did not start laying until the 17th day I recieved it, I became a little worried, 2nd year beekeeper and first queen I purchased. Victoria assured me I did everything by the book, and to give her (queen) some time to get used to her new home. I was also told that if the queen fails she could have a new one in the mail Monday if needed. I even did some research and discovered its not all that uncommon for a new queen to take 18 days before she starts laying. So I knew Victorias answer was correct. I even recieved the email on Sunday about 5 hours after I sent it Sunday morning. How many businesses answer emails on Sunday.

So far they get a thumbs up. Sure communication could be better, but each time I ever sent them an email I have always gotten a response. Cant speak for everybody but sometimes its how you communicate that wins the race. If you start off an email with a rant and cant correctly communicate your issue, what do you expect when you dont hear back from them.

Happy beekeeping all

[Specialkayme]

Mike,

It's a pleasure to actually be able to discuss this, rather than just hurl insults back and forth. This doesn't happen that often on this site. Thanks for the pleasure of the conversation. Let me see if I can answer whatever I know:

I think that Broke-T answered this one.

I think I was more surprised at the way MS does things than the list itself.

In NC you need to be inspected to sell bees inside the state, and you need to be approved to ship bees into the state. NC doesn't trust the state it comes from, as who knows how they inspect their bees (if at all).

http://www.ncagr.gov/plantindustry/p...toSell2012.pdf

Admittedly, Russell's isn't on the list for NC, lol. I don't know why. You gotta see the humor in that.

You have to become a member of his forum in order to view most of the material. I am not interested, so I can't get the info.

I understand. But if you want it straight from the horses' mouth, that's where the mouth is. Otherwise you may have to deal with my potential "speculation, conjecture, or second hand material." Just a matter of disclosure, that's all.

how much of overwinter success then is genetics and how much is beekeeper management? Does Russell ensure that every beekeeper he buys back from runs bees in the north the same way (open vs. closed bottom board, upper entrance or no, sugar feeding or no, wrapping hives vs. no wrapping, etc.). If he doesn't - then he can't sort out whether overwinter success is due to genetics or management.

That I do not know. Not being from the north, I didn't push it or ask too many questions. It didn't apply to me, I just found it interesting.

However, please don't think that what I explained above was the ENTIRE process. It was a summation. I'm sure there are other moving parts, evaluation methods and the like. I know he is keeping several of them a secret, for business purposes. I asked him once for what he selects for in the bees he sells, and he explained the method and the items he selects for (too long to recount here). When I asked for a sheet, like a log book, of how he keeps track of it, he said he would talk to his attorney on whether he could share it. His attorney told him not to. To release the information destroyed his trade secret. He thought about doing it anyway, but decided he paid his attorney for a reason, so might as well listen to him. I agreed.

if he isn't controlling for all the different management strategies out there - then it is scientifically unsound to claim that the queens are genetically 'northern acclimated'. It would be more accurate to describe them as having survived X# winters in the north.

Again, what I said was just a summation. I don't think he wrote a paper about how he does it, nor wrote down the scientific methodology for selecting northern acclimated queens. That doesn't mean there isn't any scientific methodology. It just means that I, as a customer and an avid reader of what is available, don't have that particular piece of information. I know there is more to it than "bees survived X winters in the north." I don't know what the full length of that process is though. I know he has hives up north (through mutual friends). I do not know how long they come down south.

I know I would have a hard time saying a queen is northern acclimated if it spent one winter (or two or three) up north, then spent the past six moths down south. However, I would be hard pressed to say that a bee is NOT northern acclimated if the breeder queens (and colonies themselves) spent 10 months out of year up north, for the past 20 years. I don't know that's the case, I'm just saying.

What you describe above is not science, it is more akin to magic (which is why, I suspect, there are so many who are critical of his operation).

Please. You are really stretching there.

I gave an example, in one sentence, of one particular situation. If you really think he took an AMM queen and a Carni drone and put them in a jar to create a special strain of feral bees, you would be right, that is magic.

I took months worth of work and years worth of data and put it down in one sentence. To say that's the entire process is a farce, and you and I both know that.

Then are you really getting one of HIS queens?

As much as any other operation, yes. If you go on his website and order a queen, at no point does he say that he opens every single hive to inspect every single queen. None of the other large breeding operations say the same either. If you order a queen from Rossman's, Rossman himself MAY have reviewed your queen, but my guess is he personally didn't. Same is true for Milska's (probably spelled that wrong).

To be sure, this is probably the way many big operations are run (Gardner's, Wilbanks, etc.). But then, they also don't charge premium prices for their queens and they aren't selling queens on the reputation of a single individual.

I'm not certain they are charged at that much of a premium. They arn't sold at $18, granted, but the majority of them aren't sold for $60, $80, or more. Most of his queens sell in the $25-30 range. That isn't a premium in this industry. It's actually kinda basic. It isn't the cheapest, but it isn't the most expensive either.

The more expensive queens (the moonbeams and AMM) do have more hands on experience with Russell directly. They also have more work behind their genetic selection (I know the moonbeams took SEVERAL years to perfect, and the AMM's took much longer).

I don't think you pay the prices because the queen was touched personally by the Doc. If that were true, I think there would be some cause for alarm. He isn't King Midas.

If you think you are paying more, then you are doing it for the selection methods he put down. For the supervision he provides (and the cheaper the queen, the less supervision, obviously). You are paying what the market will bear, based on supply and demand. I don't think it has anything to do with the Doc's personal grafting techniques.

I also disagree that he is selling bees in HIS name. Russell is a family name. He is a third generation beekeeper and breeder. I think he is selling in his father's name just as much as he is in his own. His father passed away. It's clearly on his website. I think he is selling in the family name just as much as either of the two examples above. I don't think there is any more of an assumption that the Doc has any more personal involvement in the individual bee that gets shipped than either of the two commercial operations that are listed above. If I'm incorrect, then they are assumptions. We all know about assumptions.

As a skeptic in most things, it seems to me that his operation has had a particularly long string of bad luck.

Skeptic or not, I would agree with the latter part of that sentence.

However (and I say this in an effort to be constructive, not disparaging) - even good people/scientists can have poor methodologies, bad management practices, make improper assumptions (even I may have done that above!), etc. I think for many of the critics - there are things about Russell's operation (some I have pointed out above) that just don't pass the 'sniff test' (and I will admit to being one of these).

A healthy level of criticism is natural and good. Asking the right questions is important. But asking them from the right person is also. The 'sniff test' you mention is based on conversations that you didn't have with the company, or with an employee of that company. That should be kept in mind. The company and it's employees are discouraged from visiting this site (not from providing answers, just from providing them at this location). When asking the questions, you should think about how you are asking them in order to think about how you are receiving the answers. If you disagree with the answers you receive, you should consider the source. If you think the methodologies he uses (or my explanation of them) might be far fetched, there are two possible reasons. One, the methodologies really are far fetched. Or two, my explanation and summation of them is (or probably better put, my explanation and simplification is over simplified, and something is lost in the translation. I don't have a PhD . . . just a JD. My degree is based on critical thinking and writing skills, not on scientific methodology. While I took graduate level courses in beekeeping, entomology, and bee breeding, I do not have a degree in it. That should be kept in mind, in the interest of full disclosure.).

The Doc spent alot of time on this site. He now views it as a waste of time. He would get questions, to which he would provide answers, and individuals would call him a liar. Then ask the question again. Skepticism is important, no doubt. But when it came to the level of "two plus two equals what?" . . . "four" . . . "LIAR!!! . . . now what does two plus two equal?" . . . it becomes less of an informative question and answer session and more of something akin to a KGB interrogation. I'm obviously stretching here, but the point is still same. Individuals would want a particular answer. When it was provided and it wasn't the answer they wanted, they would just ask the question again. It repeated so many times that the Doc stopped providing answers. But the questions and accusations still come. So now he doesn't answer questions unless it's on his site. The reason behind that is he knows if you are REALLY interested in finding the answers you'll take the time to register and spend some time on his site. It isn't a publicity thing, it's a dedication thing. If you don't care what the answer is, you just want to ask the questions, you'll probably not be willing to spend the time to register.

That isn't meant as a harp on you Mike. But it is something to think about. If you really want the answers, you know where to go. Registration isn't that hard, we both know it. It doesn't take that much time, and it isn't like your email address will be flooded with spam. And then you can have the answers to most, if not all, your questions provided straight from the source. But if you arn't willing to do that, then you get what is provided to you. I provide the answers on this site as a courtesy to Doc. I know he largely views it as a waste of time, and the more I write the more I think he's correct.

[Barry]

"However, please don't think that what I explained above was the ENTIRE process. It was a summation. I'm sure there are other moving parts, evaluation methods and the like. I know he is keeping several of them a secret, for business purposes. I asked him once for what he selects for in the bees he sells, and he explained the method and the items he selects for (too long to recount here). When I asked for a sheet, like a log book, of how he keeps track of it, he said he would talk to his attorney on whether he could share it. His attorney told him not to. To release the information destroyed his trade secret. He thought about doing it anyway, but decided he paid his attorney for a reason, so might as well listen to him. I agreed. "

If you look back into some older threads, this whole selection process was already discussed by Rob. Personally it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything beyond what member's are experiencing firsthand because we're having to hear everything filtered through your personal biases and limited knowledge, as you have already stated.

[Specialkayme]

Personally it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything beyond what member's are experiencing firsthand because we're having to hear everything filtered through your personal biases and limited knowledge, as you have already stated.

The beauty of the forums. Don't like what I have to say? Don't read it.

Of course, you could have heard it without the "personal biases and limited knowledge" if you hadn't injected your own biases in running the source off. Oops. Did someone say something bad about big brother?