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  1. #1
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    Default The Roundup Thread

    This is a kind of spin off from another thread, to discuss roundup.

    I've been hearing for some time now, that roundup is damaging to bees. Personally, I use roundup to kill weeds around my hives and have also advised others to do the same. I've sometimes got roundup on the bottom board and a lot of bees when I've sprayed, and never seen any bad effect.

    But it has been claimed roundup is very bad for bees, and where there is smoke maybe there is fire?

    Any opinions? Or any known research on this?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    In the document linked below, published by North Carolina State University,
    http://ipm.ncsu.edu/agchem/5-toc.pdf

    glyphosate (Roundup) is listed in group 3

    GROUP 3 — RELATIVELY NON-TOXIC. These pesticides can be used around bees with a minimum risk of injury.
    ...
    Glyphosate
    ...
    The .PDF doesn't cut-n-paste well here, so use the link if you don't like my crude attempt.

    The biggest problem with glysophate is that it generally has a surfactant as a small part of the mix. Surfactants are essentially detergents, and will kill bees if they get sprayed directly with enough of it.

    The other problem with Roundup is "image". It was developed by Monsanto, so it is branded as part of the Evil Empire. Howewer, Monsanto's patents have expired, so today many manufacturers make generic equivalents.


    Here's a more comprehensive document on glysophate and and its effects:
    http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles..._prf_0285.html

    IV. ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS
    Toxicological investigations conducted with bobwhite quail, mallard ducks, honey bees, rainbow trout, bluegills, and other species of fish show that these species have an extremely high tolerance to glyphosate.
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 05-10-2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: spelling + additional link
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    glysophate is a hormone disruptor, that's how it works. You're not going to see massive bee kills from roundup but I suspect it's not something that you'd want yourself or your bees (or anyone) to be submitted to sustained, long-term contact.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    I used 10% vinegar as an herbicide the other day and it worked awesomely well. I was referred to use that as an organic solution. I applied it through a pump up sprayer, in the heat of the day, and by dusk the plants were dead. The vinegar was expensive though. I bought a gallon of 20% for $20, an then split it to make 2 gallons of 10% But that was enough to treat all around my raised beds, fruit trees, etc.
    The bonus is that it is a post emergent herbicide, and is a foliar herbicide. So it won't leach down into the soil and kill other plants that you desire. I applied it to weeds and grass around my small blackberry bushes and did not harm the bushes at all...I'm getting out of hand. Maybe I should move this to an organic garden forum!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    I have not intentionally wallowed in Roundup but for over thirty years I have done an unwitting imitation of wallowing in it. I used hundreds of gallons of it farming. It is a wonderful herbicide because it is used in place of so many truely nasty ones and although I have heard screams of smoke for that thirty years, I have yet to see or have shown to me any fire.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    I think that roundup has evolved from a weed killer to the term of roundup ready corn. dont know enough to go into details. we have used round up as a grass killer in the beeyard for years with no ill effects. todays problems are from round up ready corn which has round up in the pollen and that is a different problem. Im sure I have some errors but I believe the concept is correct.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Glyphosphate basically inhibits an amino acid synthesis pathway in plants that animals don't have (for making aromatic amino acids such as phenyalanine--we get ours from our food and can't make ourselves). That being said, some in-vitro work suggests that glyphosphate could affect the progesterone hormone production pathways in humans. Insects don't have progesterone and the only hormone that might be similar that I can think of would be ecdysone (the molting hormone used for controlling molting from one instar to the next such as pupa to adult).

    Insects construct ecdysone from cholesterol and I'm not sure if anybody has ever looked at whether glyphosphate could interfere w/ this pathway but I would suspect not. A quick search only revealed a Chinese article on the effect of glyphosphate on vitellogenesis (the production of yolk proteins during egg development) in a "water flea"--Daphnia spp. They found no effect. In the adult insect ecdysone modulates egg production via this egg yolk development pathway.

    As an aside, round-up ready corn is simply corn bred to be resistant to roundup (glyphosphate). Thus, farmer plants and can still spray roundup to control weeds w/out his corn dying.

    As mentioned above, if the inactive ingredients contain a surfactant that might not be the best for the bees--like soapy water to them. Usually these are added to get past a plant's protective waxy layer.

    I lean towards organic production myself but have used roundup in the past. Chemicals, if understood and used properly, can be very beneficial tools but I'll give the vinegar a try (haven't heard of that before). Anyway, I'd be more worried about all the contraceptives leaching into our water supply before I would worry about glyphosphate affecting my wife's progesterone pathways (I don't let her drink the stuff). I think both have about the same probability of having a negative effect on my bees.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Wow. A highly scientific response. I'll accept it! I learned the vinegar solution on an organic gardening website www.dirtdoctor.com.

    That's good you don't let your wife drink Round-up. I had to wean mine off of Bt, but now she is trying to take up huffing Sevin Dust...I shouldn't have to clarify that I'm joking, but I'd hate for someone to really think anyone would huff Sevin Dust. However she is trying to convince me to put it on the garden for the cutworms, but I am determined to make this organic thing work, even if I lose my whole crop. We won't starve to death.
    After 20 months I'm over a 20 hives and growing. See my videos! http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8fVrmUsyYlRuASdX6UQk1g

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    ... I used hundreds of gallons of it [Roundup] farming. It is a wonderful herbicide because it is used in place of so many truely nasty ones and although I have heard screams of smoke for that thirty years, I have yet to see or have shown to me any fire.
    I have yet to see or even feel any heat generated by glysophate little less see the fire, and the only smoke I perceive is the smoke screen generated by the anti-corporation activists who only seem to wish to put themselves in charge of your and my character.

    What I do see however and I see it every time that it rains is clear, or at least clearer water in rivers, lakes and streams. The reason for clearer water is the dramatically reduced amount of top soil sluffing off crop land with every hard rain. Roundup and GMO crops are directly responsible for the no-till or low-till farming practices that directly result in cleaner water. Yet the anti-progress flock crows loudly about carrying about the soil and claim that they are saving it. If Roundup is banned, I somehow doubt that the anti-glysophate crowd will arm ourselves with dip nets and rescue or save much top soil as it goes racing down stream, headed for the Gulf of Mexico.

    I have also yet to see or to hear of any opponent to glysophate, rolling up their sleeves, pulling down their sweat bands, and launching a bayonet charge against the back forty, armed only with goose necked hoes. Me thinks that they are too work adverse to spend 12-14 hours a day, for 6 or 7 days per week, and 2 to 3 months out of 12, whacking weeds with a non-virtual hoe. By the way, this work won't generate a “living” wage or even house one homeless person for an entire year, but think of the CHARACTER it'll build.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Funny how no one mentioned or probably even thought of the effect of 10% vinegar on bees. Also wonder how long the rubber o-rings, washers, etc. would last in a sprayer used to spray 10% vinegar.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by beeware10 View Post
    ... I think that roundup has evolved from a weed killer to... roundup ready corn. dont know enough to go into details.... todays problems are from round up ready corn which has round up in the pollen... sure I have some errors but I believe the concept is correct.
    You may wish to view this link.
    http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/k...st/roundup.htm
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Hadn't thought about the effect of the vinegar on the o-rings. As for the bees, I don't spray it on flowers. I know that is a naive statement, as a bee could very well land on a leaf. It's the acidity though that kills the plant, not the soaps that you would find in other herbicides. I'd imagine the smell of it might be enough to keep a bee away. Actually, the recipe that I use calls for 1 TBSP of orange oil per gallon as well, which makes for a pretty potent smell. From a previous post where I mention orange oil, I learned that it is also a bee deterrent, so that should further the push to keep the bees away from the bad stuff.
    After 20 months I'm over a 20 hives and growing. See my videos! http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8fVrmUsyYlRuASdX6UQk1g

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    my question would be what about all the flowers sprayed with roundup and the bees not just getting doused in it but actually taking in some of it with the nectar before the plant dies. I do not know if it would hurt or not but wonder if anyone has looked at the angle.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Although scrape feels he can label me and others as anti-corporation activists ( or anti- progress) im just a normal guy who ran a small corporation for many years and pays close attention to what my family uses, ingests, and pays for. Until someone can convince me that any large corporation has my health and best interest in mind instead of profit and shareholders i will continue to do.

    There is plenty of information out there about roundup and any potential side effects.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup_(herbicide)

    My personal problem with roundup lies as much with the other ingredients and the synergistic effects of the combined ingredients as they do with glyphosate (more specifically polyethoxylated tallowamine, etc). Ymmv, and there is plenty of research out the if one is willing to look.

    One more note. I also use a mixture of 20% vinegar, orange oil, and soap as a (very effective) herbicide. Care should be taken with a strong mixture of acetic acid as it can cause blindness if the eyes should be exposed. It is also a very effective insect killer when wet so be cautious around the hives. It will knock down a yellowjacket within seconds.
    Last edited by kincade; 05-10-2012 at 10:40 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    feels he can label me and others
    I'm going to jump right in here, since I'm the OP I have some moderator rights

    Couple comments made and could start this thread going right where many other threads that involve chemical manufaturers go, ie, a slanging match.

    Let's all accept there are sometimes strong opinions held in this area regarding large chemical manufaturing corporates. But let's go past that, live with the other guys, and just stick with if or how roundup effects bees. This could be from references linked, or just peoples experiences, be they correctly interpreted or not. But no need to form two "teams", those discussions go nowhere.

    As they said back when I was a teenager, "peaceout! "
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #16
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    My apologies. My intent was not to fan the fire, but emphasize that I am just a regular guy and not some crazy person bent on the destruction of all corporations.

    A much shorter reply would be that polyethoxylated tallowamine and the synergy between that and glyphosate give me a serious pause in using Roundup in any capacity.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kincade View Post
    ... I am just a regular guy and not some crazy person bent on the destruction of all corporations...
    I am just a regular guy as well. I also ran a small corporation for years, and please believe me, I didn't have you in my sights when I posted. If I hit you it was purely coincidental. Please accept my apologies.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    I don't think that it is a big deal with bees, but it is being found at increasing levels in groundwater. It breaks down in soil, but is fairly stable in groundwater. The MCL of 0.7mg/l in water is exceeded in many areas of the country.

    Interesting health effect. It is one of the few things that can affect your breathing after being absorbed through the skin or ingested.
    What are the Health Effects?
    Short-term: EPA has found glyphosate to potentially cause the following health effects when people are
    exposed to it at levels above the MCL for relatively short periods of time: congestion of the lungs;
    increased breathing rate.
    Long-term: Glyphosate has the potential to cause the following effects from a lifetime exposure at levels
    above the MCL: kidney damage, reproductive effects.
    “We wage a war to save civilization itself”
    --George w. Bush November 8, 2001

  19. #19
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    The non-credited comments in the quote box in BoBn's message #18 appear to come from this EPA document:
    http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/pdfs/factsh...c/glyphosa.pdf
    That same document also says:
    The MCL has been set at 0.7 ppm because EPA believes, given present technology and resources, this is the lowest level to which water systems can reasonably be required to remove this contaminant should it occur in drinking water. These drinking water standards and the regulations for ensuring these standards are met, are called National Primary Drinking Water Regulations. All public water supplies must abide by these regulations.
    This means that if the level is above the standard, the contaminant must be filtered out of the water (generally using a charcoal filter) by the water supplier.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoBn View Post
    I don't think that it is a big deal with bees, but it is being found at increasing levels in groundwater. It breaks down in soil, but is fairly stable in groundwater. The MCL of 0.7mg/l in water is exceeded in many areas of the country.

    Interesting health effect. It is one of the few things that can affect your breathing after being absorbed through the skin or ingested.
    Note that the EPA document referred to says nothing about "can affect your breathing after being absorbed through the skin ..." or "The MCL of 0.7mg/l in water is exceeded in many areas of the country." Can anyone provide a source for these statements?
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  20. #20
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    Default Re: The Roundup Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Brueggen View Post
    Wow. A highly scientific response. I'll accept it! I learned the vinegar solution on an organic gardening website www.dirtdoctor.com.

    Sevin Dust. However she is trying to convince me to put it on the garden for the cutworms, but I am determined to make this organic thing work, even if I lose my whole crop. We won't starve to death.
    I,m in the process of trying spinosad for cutworm control (similar to Bt but a different organism). Using Slugg-o plus--mainly for slug control but labeled for cutworms too due to the spinosad (hence the plus).

    In the past I would slide a toothpick half way into the ground on each side of the stem for each plant. Prevents the worms from being able to wrap around the stem and chew through. It's a pain when they are getting your young corn (too many plants). We'll see how the spinosad works.

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