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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,174

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Here's what it is for me, I think. If someone wants a written contract/agreement, you are already starting off from a place of distrust nad no amount of paperis going to remedy that. imo

    On the other hand, if having a piece of paper makes you feel better. Start off by finding a location, get the landowners permission and then say, "I have this standard agreement spelling out my rights and rwsponsibilities. Would you like to review it and sign it?" and see where things go from there. You may want to do this in front of a Notary Public.

    Can you see how difficult that would be for someone w/ 3700 colonies in 50 some yds who travels to other States as well? Somewhat impractical.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,174

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    DanielY,
    Wouldn't it be easier to print the contract as written and make changes by pen when negotiating w/ the land owner? Strike a line thru those parts both agree can be omitted. Initialing any changes? I imagine that is done all the time in Lawyers offices. Though they may also just have theire Secretary retype it after the scribbled copy is agreed upon.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan
    Posts
    16

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Responding as a retired company exec that's reviewed hundreds of contracts, not a beek, if your primary concern is ownership of the hive, spell that out in a simple document and move on. All other items will make the document seem onerous and cause a party to either not sign the document, or, worse yet, engage their attorney to review it. Otherwise, don't take the risk by putting your hives on someone else's property.

    Any other items I'd work on the handshake principle. My two cents of an already over-litigious society.

    Dan

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,828

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Mark, In actual practice I think any agreement is going to be worked out according to what that specific location can and cannot do.
    The land owner and the beekeeper are going to get together and talk about how the deal will work. then the contract will be written up according to those agreements.
    Lets take a real example that I have right now. Possible yard one is near a residence with 40 acres of the homeowners land. The wife is also a homemaker and typically will be there to keep an eye on things. They also have a pond on the property that they maintain and keep full. Security and water are obviously not going to be great concerns at this location. My only concern is if they drain the pond for any reason I wan them to be clear they have to provide another water source for the bees. I am an hour away and there is really no reason I think they are going to think about my bees if they have to drain a pond.

    Location 2 is 5 acres in an area of 5 acre lots owned by a retired couple that travel frequently. no natural water is available for miles. Security in this location is probably a deal breaker for me. I am not going to run out there every other day and fill a water trough so they need to find a neighbor kid to do it in their absence. If that neighbor kid flakes and my bees die they will buy my hives from me including the value of the lost bees. I am right up front with them. I don't think they can provide minimum requirement for a hive of bees with their current life style. they think I am wrong. they can carry the liability of being wrong if they are. I this case they want the bees not so much I want tot put them there. This one started with them wanting to get a hive and I would look after it while they where gone. not even close to agreeable to me. So yes your point about starting off from a position of distrust or dis belief I completely agree with. Probably best to just walk away from this one. but you never know some workable believable plan may eventually form out of it.

    But in the end any contract just needs to reflect what was agreed upon. It is not a tool that then allows you to force anyone about anything. It is a tool that helps remind everyone involved just what the terms of the agreement where. very little if any of it are going to be legally binding. but it can include the details of the legal potions each party are placing themselves in. It is not so much that I am making the land owner liable for any damages. it is that by law, at least here. The land owner is going to be found liable if there are any damages. They should clearly know they are accepting that risk right up front.

    SO for any of you that think that adding liability phrases in the contract is me forcing the risk on anyone. that is how you chose to read it. I wrote it as more of a favor to the land owner to be aware of the position they are in fact putting themselves in.

    The land owner thinks it no big deal that the neighbor kid keeps messing with the hives. that is until that kid gets multiple stings and the kids parents launch an investigation from Child Protective Services. Think you can choose who gets investigated all you want. But I know for a fact it will be the land owner. And it will be the land owner that is fined by CPS or jailed for child endangerment if that is what the investigation reveals. If you think CPS does not investigate beehives as a source of child endangerment. then explain why just last week I was talking to CPS about the hives in my back yard and the risk they pose to my grandchildren.

    It is not you or me that will decide who is liable for what. but that does to mean those liable should not have that fact spelled out for them.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,828

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Another thought I have had on this discussion. Concerning the issue of property damage. I had in the contract damage to crops in accessing the hives. The response was that it is unlikely that a farmer woudl plant crops on the road to the hives. agreed. I also see that as a very weak understanding of the underlying issue. The underlying issue is property damage in any form. The only reason it was written the way it was is that is how it was written in the form that I changed a bit. I just didn't re write it. So in order to expand the range of this issue a bit I will give you this real life situation I face with leased land.

    Our area has wild horses. It is illegal to feed and attract herds of wild horses but people do it anyway. One location I use has a neighbor that has fed horses until she has attracted a heard of 45 or more of them. That is a lot of horse. Just yesterday I had to drive through that heard of horses as they blocked the road. This ran the risk of causing them to stampede. harm each other or even damage my vehicle. So who is responsible of a stampede of horses damages the fence of a neighbor when I am on my way to the land owners house? What if those horses had gathered in the driveway of the land owner and then decided to walk through their front yard to get away? 160 plus hooves does a tremendous amount of damage. The contract is meant to say the land owner will not hold me responsible for the risk they live with if I had not been their at all. they chose to live among wild horses and wild horses damage things. me being there dose not change that one bit. In fact I had along discussion with this land owner about all the issues they currently have. cattle that tear down their fences and get into their garden. rabbits and coyotes that eat drip systems. wild horses that walk through fences trample gardens and otherwise cause problems. This land owner is not going to blame me for every bad thing that happens from now on. I now know the history from before I ever got their and I expect that history will continue. I know the risk and they know it as well. I made it clear what I woudl do and what I expected from them. As it is this land owner dropped the ball. For legitimate reasons but still bad things happen. the result is I lost $9000 in tobacco. This was a direct result of the land owner not watering the field as they had agreed. Is anyone getting sued? No. Could I? possibly. Are the land owner and I still friends? Definitely. and bad things happen. and most of it is happening to them. they are in the midst of losing a parent. they have no business being at home taking care of my tobacco. I do wish they had called me to take care of it though but they didn't. they asked a neighbor to do it. but the neighbor did not understand how to get the water turned on the field. Btu that is life. I'm not going to blame this land owner for the loss of my plants. and they will not hold me responsible for wild horses.

    I do have to say though. this one stings a bit.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Citrus County, Florida, United States
    Posts
    258

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Bees are easy...people...nothing but complicated.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Kingsport, Sullivan, Tennessee
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Rader: I like that one. I agree that though it is for pollination, it should work as it is for "free" pollination. For one thing, that emphasizes that the property owner is getting a free service - even though he may have no crops. With a bit of editing, including some elements from Daniels submission, I think this may do the trick. Thanks. -James

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Kingsport, Sullivan, Tennessee
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    [QUOTE=sqkcrk;817683]<snip>...
    dixie, why does this person want something in writing? if one of my Landowners asked for something in writing I would be concerned. I wouldn't put a yard on their land or, if I already had a yd there, I would pull it out at the end of the year and not go back. Something makes me uneasy about this. I can't quite say why exactly, but it does. When I get a feeling that something isn't right, it usually isn't.<snip>

    Mark, the property owner said he primarily was interested in making sure that I assumed the 'liability' for the bees being there. I assume (yes, I know what that entails) he meant in case the bees sting someone.

    "Find yourself another location. There are plenty of them out there."

    Maybe so, but I'm not finding them.

    "If this person asked you to put bees there, don't pay them anything, not even honey. They invited you, you didn't seek them out."

    I approached them because of the location

    "<snip>if you need another apiary, then that is different."

    Which is the case here. I needed another apiary, one fairly close to my house.

    "Those are some of my thoughts. I hope they are worth the reading."

    They were. thanks. -james

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,907

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    If I had to go through all this contract/legal stuff I would just get out of the bee business. I have never had anyone demand something in writing and most would be offended if I asked for such. We just do not have that type of people around here... at least not in my experience. I do not even do a written contract for a pollination job... never had a problem. Handshake is all it takes. Worth more than paper.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    If the paper isn't written correctly, it's only use would be in an outhouse. I think the suggested pollination contract would be the closest thing to an agreement that both parties would sign. I don't see it protecting either party in the case of bee stings. Has anyone ever held someone liable for damages from a bee sting?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    East Hartford CT
    Posts
    146

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by dixiebooks View Post
    So, how about doing a rewrite and showing the results? Edit and re-post what you think it should look like. -james
    Dixie, I would do something simple like this:

    This agreement is between a landowner_________________________and a beekeeper____________________.
    The purpose of this agreement is for understanding of both parties that the beekeeper will place bee hives on the landowners property to provide free pollination of whatever plants the landowner has on said property. The beekeeper is provided with a place to put the hives with access whenever necessary. All products or proceeds from the hives are the beekeeper's property to do with as he/she sees fit.

    The beekeeper will:
    1) Assume all liability and risk with the placement of the hives on the landowners property.
    2) Be responsible for the care, feeding and maintenance of the hives.
    3) Be respectful of the landowners property including fences, cropland and livestock.
    4) Close all gates after passing through in a timely manner.
    5) Only use designated and agreed upon roadways to travel to the bee yard.
    6)Avoid accessing the bee yard after a heavy rain until the roadways have dried enough to travel such roadways without doing unnecessary damage unless its a emergency.(IE-hurricane etc)
    7)Remove all hives and equipment from the landowners property within 30 days notice should the landowner desire such for any reason.
    8) Keep the bee yard neat and tidy and not place unused and unnecessary equipment or debris on the landowners property.

    The land owner will:
    1) Provide a level piece of property for the beekeeper to place hives on.
    2) Provide access to the hives for the beekeeper year round as best he/she can.
    3) Inform beekeeper of any pesticides that could be harmful to bees being applied 48 hours before applying.
    4) Reimburse beekeeper for damages to hives caused by the landowner or employees with equipment but not by livestock.
    5) Allow the beekeeper to remove his/her hives anytime for any reason should the bee keeper need to.
    6) Not allow any other beehives placed on the property without giving notice to the beekeeper 30 days prior.
    7) Notify beekeeper of any damages by calling __________________ as soon as possible so the beekeeper can try to fix the damage and save the bees. (floods, winds, vandals, wildlife)

    This agreement is an open-ended contract and does not expire.

    Signed___________________________(beekeeper) Date________________

    Signed___________________________(Landowner) Date________________

    Property the hives will be placed on is located at:

    __________________________________________________ ___________________

    __________________________________________________ ___________________

    This is a rough draft of how I would make a agreement if I needed one.
    Just a thought. Good luck
    Last edited by ctgolfer; 06-25-2012 at 04:24 PM.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    East Hartford CT
    Posts
    146

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    The Above agreement is NOT copywrited and can be used by any beekeeper for any purpose. Just copy and past into MS Word and alter it as you see fit.
    Jim

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    The only thing I would change is item 1 for beekeeper:
    I would say that beekeeper will be bonded or insured (for x dollars if you want to include) for liability. You can say you are liable but if you are penniless you can't draw blood form a stone. Most land owner realize they are liable and the only protection is insurance.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    654

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    I have an outyard that I use on my cousin's property and the agreement is:

    Your guys (cousin's employees) won't mess with or go near the hives. I'm responsible for the hives (hardware, bees). I can access the property anytime, day or night to inspect, feed or move bees/hives while I have hives present on the property. If you grow watermelons and would like my polination services you pay the normal rate for 1/2 hive per acre and I will match you by 1/2 the hives you requested (free) if I have the hives to to so. (verbal)

    Pollination contract with a local farmer:

    I will supply you with 9 hives to pollinate 14 acres of watermelons, you pay for 7 at normal rate (2 free). He is responsible for damages to the hives ($200 max per hive) and the liability for having hives on his property for the time they are present on the property. I can access the property (where the hives are located) anytime to inspect, feed etc. The hives will remain from an agreed upon date until end of bloom or he feels pollination is complete. No herbicides/pesticides will be sprayed near the hives and I will be notified at least 3 days in advance of such spraying. (verbal) I give him an invoice for services rendered.

    There are some that I would have sign a pollination contract but the people I know don't necessarily require one. Never had any problems other than someone accidentally backing into a hive and knocking it over (which they promply notified me) and ended up being no big deal.
    Zone 5a @ 4700 ft. High Desert
    Facebook

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Bon Aqua, Tn USA
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    I'm with WillyC and those that say if a handshake isn't enough, I say thank you and move on. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    I'm looking for contract ideas and enjoying the conversation here. I've asked locally and heard support for verbal agreements and handshakes.

    But for all the people here who say a handshake is enough, I wonder: What is the actual agreement? Is it basically the same as a typical contract, but saving the effort of writing it down and signing it?

    The handshake seals an agreement. So is it just "if something happens, we'll work it out"? Probably not.

    My bees, your space, I come and go, you get a little honey ... And if something happens, we'll work it out. — What else?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    tacoma, wa. usa
    Posts
    137

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofu View Post
    I'm looking for contract ideas and enjoying the conversation here. I've asked locally and heard support for verbal agreements and handshakes.

    But for all the people here who say a handshake is enough, I wonder: What is the actual agreement? Is it basically the same as a typical contract, but saving the effort of writing it down and signing it?

    The handshake seals an agreement. So is it just "if something happens, we'll work it out"? Probably not.

    My bees, your space, I come and go, you get a little honey ... And if something happens, we'll work it out. — What else?
    Interesting thread...good discussion and thoughts. Handshake deals are good until something changes. Some kid at a birthday party next door gets mixed up, stung and off to the hospital...

    I think several of the drafts here would work and could be well made to individual needs, if you decided that you needed one (at all). I would consider the situation to drive the need and scope....If you are running a business, providing pollination services for someone running a business (growing something), clarity is good and if you've got a ton of hives, it's not an easy thing to move them on short notice. If you go with a handshake you are accepting the liability risk that goes along with that kind of deal. I don't think you can have "cookie cutter" approach that will try to address all issues, each situation.

    As a hobbyist, I've thought about this and my hives that are on private property in residential areas...all handshake deals. After I moved into one fellows property (he had two empty lots, behind his house), the next time I showed up, one of the properties had a for sale sign on it....slow market, but I intuitively understood I needed a back up plan if the new property owners weren't as bee friendly....In my situation, I think that understanding the liability exposure is different as it is residential vs agriculture....I don't worry about water, but I worry about the neighbors kids coming over and messing with my equipment....In another place, I'll have 6-7 hives in a 5 acres site with about 100 apple trees...They'll spray he says, but will be careful of wind direction etc....I'd like to have him give me a little notice so I can decide if I want to cover them up or something for a day or two. I figure that I'm always on notice that I may have to move something somewhere....For me, so far it's handshakes and promises of a minor share if the flows are decent.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    737

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Unless money or something else of comparable value is being exchanged (and a couple of jars of "courtesy" honey won't suffice), any contract will be unenforceable.

    If you can't trust the landowner based on a handshake, your hives are at risk no matter how much paper is signed and you should find another location.

    As the landowner, if a beek asked me to be allowed to place hives on my land, I would view it as doing a favor, and if the beek then showed up with contract for me to sign, I would be insulted and tell him to find a new place for his bees.

    JMHO
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 14 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO United States
    Posts
    357

    Default Re: Outyard agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    If I had to go through all this contract/legal stuff I would just get out of the bee business. I have never had anyone demand something in writing and most would be offended if I asked for such. We just do not have that type of people around here... at least not in my experience. I do not even do a written contract for a pollination job... never had a problem. Handshake is all it takes. Worth more than paper.
    Those type of "people" are everywhere and in time it will be one of those hands you shook trying to dig into your pocket, or hold you liable for something, which is still that hand now digging in your pocket. Everyone does not have Character, and if your i's or not dotted, and your t's are not crossed, those type of people you will eventually come across.
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat :)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

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