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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    robertsdale,Al.,USA
    Posts
    236

    Default RJ removed,cells left dry

    I primed the cups,grafted,&put them in the starter.checked them the next day&the bees had removed the RJ primer,but left the cells dry.Soooo.....bad jelly....too cold[don't think so]....bees getting too old in starter....all the above???

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    Are they queenless?
    Are they crowded?
    Is there a flow? If not are you feeding them?

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenre...tm#cellstarter
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,408

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    You really haven't given enough details. There are too many possibilities and combinations of circumstances that can cause graft failure.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    robertsdale,Al.,USA
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    yes,its a queenless starter

    yes,the box was full of bees

    yes,we have a good flow going

    I've been averaging 10-12 take,or better, on a 15 cell bar....tried a bar&a 50/50 bar of RJ&plain yogurt to see how that works....dont know why they cleaned them all out&then left them dry...the RJ isn't that old as far as purchased&its been working ....don't think they were out long enough to dry out,but possible

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,408

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    My cell builder box is 1-1/4" thick polystyrene with a wooden frame glued to it, the inner surface is lined with aluminum tape. It is wide enough to hold five frames and two narrow cell bars, with space around them so they can be moved freely (not pushed tightly against adjacent frames). I change the configuration of frames depending on how I am using the cell builder. Sometimes I remove a frame to accommodate a frame of California Mini Cages for cells to emerge into, or to permit three or four single cell bars to be used simultaneously.

    I've heard that some use yogurt to prime, with good success, I tried it a few times and got no takes with it. I use JZsBZs wide base cell cups, mount them on the JZsBZs cell bars, spray them full of purified water and let them soak for about an hour (most plastics actually absorb a little water), then I knock most of the water out of the cups, prime with a drop of royal jelly that has been mixed with a little purified water to thin it out and help to keep it moist longer and immediately graft the larvae then place them into my cell builder.

    When I use the Chinese style grafting tool I usually do not prime first, but I do pre-hydrate the cups, anyways. If I use a stainless steel grafting needle or the JZsBZs plastic grafting needle I like to prime before grafting, it makes it much easier to transfer the larvae from the needle to the cell cup with a drop of royal jelly in there first.

    Also, around here, at around 6:00 a.m. it is 60F and 45% R.H., in another few hours the temp will be over 90F and the R.H. drop to a single digit. With high temps and low R.H. it is very difficult to graft successfully. I believe that is due to the stress on the young larvae, produced by those conditions. I have used a fine mist of water, sprayed into the air near my grafting area, during times with naturally higher temps and lower R.H. - but it was difficult to control properly and sometimes just filled the cell cups with too much water from the mist. Much easier when natural conditions were most suitable.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 04-29-2012 at 08:34 AM.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia, MS, USA
    Posts
    633

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    I pull JZBZ cups straight out of the bag and place them on cell bars and graft straight into them. I use a chinese grafting tool so I am getting the pool of RJ the larva is lying in when I graft.

    I have tried putting them in 24 hours early to get them polished. Didn't help.

    I have tried brushing wax on edges to make them appear more natural. Didn't help.

    If your cell starter wants queens, most anything will work. If they don't, nothing will work.



    Johnny
    "Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Clinton County, Michigan USA
    Posts
    301

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    yes,its a queenless starter

    yes,the box was full of bees
    What kind of starter?

    In my limited experience, the only time I have had a complete failure is when open brood was placed next to the new grafts.
    9th year beekeeper, about 20 hives.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Leetonia, Ohio
    Posts
    389

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    I would question if they were truly queenless

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    >yes,the box was full of bees

    But was it OVERFLOWING with bees?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    robertsdale,Al.,USA
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    coulda been the frames put in the day before to 'restock' the nurse bees had some eggs,I'll keep that in mind...thanks.....it wasn't 5# of bees in a 3#box,but it was pretty full

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,408

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    When I add brood to my cell builder, I add emerging and some open brood. I want to keep laying workers from becoming a problem and I want any Varroa to do their work in brood, other than queen cells. Earlier I had almost completely eliminated using open brood in my cell builder and queen cells began to attract Varroa, with plenty of other open brood in the hive, they no longer do. I haven't had any issues getting grafts accepted, even when they're placed next to entire frames of newly hatching eggs. Rather, grafts placed next to frames of very young larvae (and their associated nurse bees) seem to be fed even better than those next to frames with any other contents.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Clinton County, Michigan USA
    Posts
    301

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    If you didn't have your builder overflowing with bees you still would have gotten some take, and undoubtedly reduced royal jelly feeding. So I don't think that was your main issue. The only other thing I can think of is injuring every single larvae, but you have done this before so also not an issue. Let us know how your next graph goes, I bet it will be a good one.
    9th year beekeeper, about 20 hives.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,576

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    I'm with jdpro on this one. With 0 acceptance I would suspect the presence of a queen even a virgin particularly since you seem to have some background in doing this and are following a method that has worked for you in the past. I also agree with Johnny "when the conditions are right almost anything will work, when it's not almost nothing works".
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    robertsdale,Al.,USA
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: RJ removed,cells left dry

    update...on the 50/50 frame 6out of 8 took with the RJ...the other 7 in yogurt didn't

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