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  1. #1
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    Default 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Two of my over-wintered hives had far more bees than the others. The broodnests contained narrow frames...

    If it's the result of using 1 1/4" frames it's a remarkable difference.

    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Probably a little of both... luck and good design...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    That's encouraging. I just cut down all my brood frames to 1 1/4".

    Adam

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Absent any positive indication that frame-width had anything to do with it, I would not be inclined to equate frame-width or any other variable with causation.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrobinson View Post
    Absent any positive indication that frame-width had anything to do with it, I would not be inclined to equate frame-width or any other variable with causation.
    "or any other variable"

    So having a lot of bees in two particular hives is the result of... nothing.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    If we wait until we get agreement from everyone regarding cause and effect in beekeeping, then "officially" nothing is working to any real benefit.

    Adam

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    This discussion goes back at least a century. Natural hives tend to have variable spacing of the combs, in frames we have to choose, and 1 3/8" seems to work best for most people. 1 1/4" is more typical of natural brood nests with wider spacing for storage and drone comb, but having different width combs in different locations in the hive causes other problems, notably that frames are not interchangeable in and out of the brood nest if you want to maintain narrow spacing there, and 1 1/4" spacing is too narrow for the outer combs (so the bees build drone comb where you don't want it).

    The higher density of bees with one layer of bees between frames in a cluster rather than two could make a difference on wintering but there are no definitive studies that prove that clearly.

    A sample of two has a nearly 100% beta error statistically, although the effect may indeed be real. Consistent better performance over several years means more that just bigger hives once.

    Peter

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    This discussion goes back at least a century...
    The higher density of bees with one layer of bees between frames in a cluster rather than two could make a difference on wintering but there are no definitive studies that prove that clearly...
    You know, as a newer beekeeper, trying to make sense of what management approaches are best to pursue, I find that the lack of "definitive studies" is something we all just have to quit asking for.

    I mean, it's generally agreed that the honeybee is responsible for the success of at least 30% of our food supply, so it is as important as any insect could be, and still, after 30 years with varroa - also largely known as the #1 problem for the bees - most of us aren't even sure how long a varroa mite lives. And if you look for "definitive studies" on just about anything to do with varroa - you're still going to find yourself in a sea of conflicting information.

    What I'm learning is it has to come back to betting on a horse, and then building knowledge from experience.


    Adam

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    I think it comes back to colonies are individuals. They have an organized way of doing things but that doesn't mean there is just one way. As a hobbyist with just a few hives I don't think what you learn from one hive can necessarily be applied to another.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Acebird,

    On April 13th you had one hive. You took it apart, you now have three boxes with possibly bees in all three.

    A box with some bees in it is not automatically considered a hive.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    When is it considered a hive?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    When is it considered a hive?
    White woodenware stacked up on stands could be identified as "beehives" by people driving by in a car. In the context of this forum, I believe most beekeepers would consider a hive to be a well populated queenright colony inhabiting full sized woodenware.

    Your additional boxes wouldn't qualify as nucs until you have laying queens and different stages of brood. So if they have not attained the qualities of nucs, they certainly aren't "hives".

    If there are viable q-cells you might call them mating nucs. If that's not the case, I would suggest that what you have is closer to being stacks of woodenware, than "hives".
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Your picture shows 9 frames in the top and 8 in the bottom. Are these from two different hives to show a contrast? Why is the frame spacing so large in the bottom box? There also appears to be some type of insulation, or at least thicker wood near the top of the bottom box. So what can be attributed to your success? Good management practices, a particularly good queen, an 8 + 9 frame comb, or just a favorable roll of the dice? This looks great, but like others have pointed out, statistically insufficient to draw meaningful conclusions. I currently don't run 1.25 frames, but I like the idea of having more brood concentrated in one box.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    That is the stand with eight PVC pipe "slats". It's built from 2x4's and incorporates a screened bottom. There were two other mediums with a lot of bees as well.

    http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/j...t=MVI_8022.mp4
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    I like those stands. I was thinking of those when I built mine. I like the idea of no landing boards and smaller entrances. I'm keeping mine small. I have not used an entrance bigger than about 3" x 3/8" for a while, and the bees do fine with it. Here in Nova Scotia, I just find that cool times mean the larger entrances are left undefended to yellow jackets, who are mobile at much cooler temperatures.

    In the langs I'm setting up now, I'm using a top entrance and a bottom entrance. Larger one on top, but both a fraction of what is typical in 10 frame lang set-ups. I'm also going with 1 1/4" frames for brood. All my traps have them too. I like an 8 frame box with 9 frames in it. I'll be interested to see where they put drone brood, though...

    Adam


    Adam

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Adam,

    We've taken this off topic, but since were discussing my Contemporary Hive Stand it's not annoying ...

    If I make more of these I will use 3/4" thick hardwood or mahogany for the front and back pieces to simplify the routing of the entrance and rear screen and sticky board slots. I would continue using 2x4's for the sides. I made some of the combined SBB/Slatted racks for nucs out of 2x3's but there isn't sufficient wood to have good support below the dado for the sticky boards.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Maybe we should point out this is Connecticut in April...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    It is not only Connecticut, it is Fairfield county, a much milder weather pattern than the areas that boarders Northern NY and Mass.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #19
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    Winston Salem , NC
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Where can you purchase 11/4" frames? Thanks
    larry

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 1 1/4" Narrow frames, results of, or coincidence?

    Take a plane with four or five swipes to thin the standard ones down. If you haven't built the frames yet you can rip them down on a table saw.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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