problems with queencells and mating nucs.

[gennetika]

I'm gonna try to be short and clear, i am noticing 3 problems regarding queencells, and 1 regarding both queencells and mating nucs, but they migth be related to each other, so guys let me know what you think.

1.- on the 10 day after grafting, when i'm about to distribute all my queencells to my mating nucs, i'm finding that a lot of my queencells have a dead larva on the lower part of the cell, perhaps 25 out of 50, and i wasn't having this problem at all last year. What's going on here?

2.- After eliminating all non viable cells, and distributing what is left to the nucs, on a sunny nice day, keeping my cells in a cooler, i'm watching 3 or 4 days later tha some of those "viable" cells are not hatching, after checking what's inside the cell, i find an almost well devleloped dead queen. What's going on here??

3.-21 days after introducing my queencells to my mating nucs, and when i'm suposed to be harvesting my queen, i'm finding virgin queens reared by the mating nuc, which means they destroyed my queencell which by the way i introduce 1 day after harvesting the queen and with a jzbz cell protector, or once my queen emerged, they killed it, or probably she didn't emerged, and they just cleaned the wax left on the cell. What's going on??

Is everything related?? is it a disease problem?
I'm discarding human mistakes by taking extra precautions on key points, but i'm not perfect and i migth be screwing at some point, any ideas???

omar

[adamf]

Hi
Where are you keeping the cells up to when you distribute them?
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

[gennetika]

in natural incubators, an orphan hive with i guess enough bees to keep them warm

[jim lyon]

I would assume these problems are related. Do the 10 day old cells appear normal, are they showing deformities? Have the bees chewed some out? How are you diagnosing that 50% are bad? Did you initially have a good acceptance percentage? Do you have a history of raising healthy cells in this area? Do your hives otherwise appear normal and healthy?

[gennetika]

I would assume these problems are related. Do the 10 day old cells appear normal, are they showing deformities? Have the bees chewed some out? How are you diagnosing that 50% are bad? Did you initially have a good acceptance percentage? Do you have a history of raising healthy cells in this area? Do your hives otherwise appear normal and healthy?

The cells look just fine, here's a pic, inside the cellbuilders sometimes bees chew 2 or 3, my diagnosis is carried on by shaking the cell with great care a little, and that way i feel the queen inside. This problem has been heppening the last 3 weeks, first 3 or 4 batches were just fine. Hives in this same place look fine, i've never had troubles in this area with diseases or ay other stuff.

IMG00242-20120419-1131.jpg

[adamf]

The cells look just fine, here's a pic, inside the cellbuilders sometimes bees chew 2 or 3, my diagnosis is carried on by shaking the cell with great care a little, and that way i feel the queen inside. This problem has been heppening the last 3 weeks, first 3 or 4 batches were just fine. Hives in this same place look fine, i've never had troubles in this area with diseases or ay other stuff.

IMG00242-20120419-1131.jpg

Developing pupa arepretty sensitive. Upside down cells and "shaking" cells, even if very gentle, is certainly going to damage them.
In our operation, if a cell is jostled or dropped, it is culled.

I'm wondering about your "natural" incubator scenario. If the cells aren't around 92 F-95 F constantly, they'll not develop properly.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

[WG Bee Farm]

Low humidity in your incubator will some times kill the fragile larva/pupa.
If you have too, place a wash cloth in the bottom and keep it damp (wet) at all times.

Frank Wyatt
WG Bee Farm.

[gennetika]

Developing pupa arepretty sensitive. Upside down cells and "shaking" cells, even if very gentle, is certainly going to damage them.
In our operation, if a cell is jostled or dropped, it is culled.

I'm wondering about your "natural" incubator scenario. If the cells aren't around 92 F-95 F constantly, they'll not develop properly.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

Adam,
ok , let me get this,
1.- "upside down cells" is as my cells look in my pic? (is that the wrong way?), should they be at all time as you find them in nature?
2.- How do you confirm you have a viable queencell? how do you check it?
3.- This, i can fix it, also the incubator, but what really is kicking me, is the fact that the mating nuc decides to rear their own queen, what is your process in your operation? from harvesting your queen, until giving a queencell, or a virgin, could you describe it with a little detail?

omar

[gennetika]

Low humidity in your incubator will some times kill the fragile larva/pupa.
If you have too, place a wash cloth in the bottom and keep it damp (wet) at all times.

Frank Wyatt
WG Bee Farm.

Would regular sugar syrup feeding give me the enough humidity inside the hive?

omar

[jim lyon]

As important as it is to keep humidity in incubators I really doubt that it would be the problem within a finisher. Given that you have had success previously with your system I would assume that the issue involves something environmental that is affecting the cells and will most likely work itself out. If it is any consolation most anyone who raises many cells has had episodes like this mysteriously come and go, myself included. I even heard one of the largest queen raisers in the world complaining that he has had similar experiences and never did find out what was the cause. Pesticides and poison pollens such as yellow Jasmine are the most likely culprits also water from less than pure sources are a possibility (have you ruled out old and /or fermented or moldy feed?) one must consider royal jelly a highly concentrated version of what they are gathering. Cells will suffer yet the brood seems to be perfectly healthy.

[ryan]

Ok

As far as checking cells to be viable. Wait to do it until the day they hatch or the day before. Hold them between you and a light and then Tip them upside down slowly. Many times you only need to go to a 45 degree angle and you will see them slide. Sometimes the SLIGHTEST tap on the bar is needed. If they move they should be ok. Then return them to the normal hanging position for transport. The day they hatch they are pretty tough. It can't hurt to be gentle with them at all times.

The reasons for bad cells are too many to list. Our tools are limited. Standard Pollen sub: lots of it, mix it soft, apply between the boxes. Avoid the fancy new high protein stuff because its hard to mix right and the bees wont eat it if its not perfect. Thin feed given every time cells are grafted, even if the hive is heavy. Tylan or TM50 on a regular schedule. Maybe change out some pollen frames, maybe.

some people have better luck catching a queen and having the cell planted and hatch within a few hours. Other say catch today plant a cell tomorrow. I've found the larger the nuc the better it is to wait a day to re-cell it. Small ones do better for me if they get a virgin hatched out within a few hours.

Nice looking cells

[Keith Jarrett]

Avoid the fancy new high protein stuff because its hard to mix right and the bees wont eat it if its not perfect.

Ouch....

[ryan]

ok
I'm with you, sort of. The cell builder only has open cells for 72 hours. They did eat it over the course of a week, just didn't work as a pollen blast as easily as the old stuff. Benefits may be there, but this guy wants to solve a challenge not figure out something new. I'll try some of yours next season.

[jim lyon]

Some good advice from Ryan. We had good success this year with feeding our builders only about 3 to 4 lbs of feed at a time but doing it every 4th day. We fed some of Keith's sub in our builders along side some of the stuff from errrrr Wal Mart and found it to be a real nice product. The bees took it much more readily than the other stuff. It probably wasn't a good test though. The hives are so large and in such a stimulated environment that any supplement is overkill and is only fed to give the bees a constant source of something other than what they bring in naturally with the idea that if they do get into some Yellow Jasmine it will at least be a smaller percentage of their total protein stores. We actually did have a short bout with something that appeared quite similar to what these photos of Genneticas show but it went away as quickly as it came.

[gennetika]

Ok

As far as checking cells to be viable. Wait to do it until the day they hatch or the day before. Hold them between you and a light and then Tip them upside down slowly. Many times you only need to go to a 45 degree angle and you will see them slide. Sometimes the SLIGHTEST tap on the bar is needed. If they move they should be ok. Then return them to the normal hanging position for transport. The day they hatch they are pretty tough. It can't hurt to be gentle with them at all times.

The reasons for bad cells are too many to list. Our tools are limited. Standard Pollen sub: lots of it, mix it soft, apply between the boxes. Avoid the fancy new high protein stuff because its hard to mix right and the bees wont eat it if its not perfect. Thin feed given every time cells are grafted, even if the hive is heavy. Tylan or TM50 on a regular schedule. Maybe change out some pollen frames, maybe.

some people have better luck catching a queen and having the cell planted and hatch within a few hours. Other say catch today plant a cell tomorrow. I've found the larger the nuc the better it is to wait a day to re-cell it. Small ones do better for me if they get a virgin hatched out within a few hours.

Nice looking cells

Ryan,

thanks for the advice, when i first start rearing queens, i followed all these steps, as well as the ones books talked about, later with my little experience, decided to be more "adventurer", as wilbanks in his operation, i've seen videos of his operation, and they treat queencells as kids treat toys, do you think they deal with problems by doing that?? ayway i'll be more careful, anyway i think the cause of my specific failure are the incubators i think they need more bees in order to keep a constant temperature.

[ryan]

No need to be fancy with your incubation hive. Put the queen from a good double deep hive in the bottom box, cells up top with an excluder in between. Perfection every time.

I'm sure the guys you see handle cells on the internet don't do any harm to the cells. They make it look easy. Reminds me of the time I thought I would set the table and then jerk the table cloth out from under the China. I saw the guy do it on TV....I mean, how hard could it be???

ryan