Supercedure!

[Mike in Amboy]

So, today is day 8! I went out and filled my feeders today. Thank goodness I got the biggest Pro-Feeders they have, 2 gallons. Both feeders took a full gallon, one took a gallon and a hair more.

I found one of my Queens and managed to get a dot of yellow paint on her back to make her easier to spot in the future. Went to my 2nd hive, and couldnt find her. I wasn't all that worried about it, so continued on with my inspection. I found what appeared to be the start of a supercedure cell, and scrapped it off. After I did it, I thought to myself, boy, that probably wasnt smart dummy.

Is 8 days soon enough for them to think they need a new queen already? Comb is only being built on a hand full of frames thus far, and mostly in top corners of those that are building. I guess if they are hell bent on making a new queen, they will have that cell built back up again rather quickly. I'm going to go back out and look for her tomorrow again and see what they've done. Now I'm worried that since I didn't see her, and saw that cell...that maybe she is gone? Which means I just put them back at least a day if they have to start building that thing again.

Should I be worried I've lost my queen, or going to gain a new one? I wouldn't think they are thinking about swarming already, but I guess I better go get another deep or 2 on hand just in case.

Only 8 days in and these bees have me wrapped around their fingers as much as my kids do!

[robherc]

I doubt that they're already thinking of swarming...they'll generally at least fill the frames with comb b-4 they try that
As far as the Q cell, if it was a supercedure cell, they're going to supercede her eventually anywise, so might as well let it happen (or move her to a nuc with a frame of capped brood, some worker bees, and a frame of honey...presto, new queenright hive! If she's nowhere to be found, she likely got injured during an inspection (I've done that) and died, so they're trying to build emergency cells with whatever brood they have, in order to have a queen...either way, I would NOT recommend destroying any future Q cells...too risky all-around.

[Mike Gillmore]

It's not uncommon for package bees to supercede the queen early on. The bees have a pretty good sense for queens that are not up to snuff. Or, she could have died or become injured somewhere along the line.

Check the frames again and see if there are any eggs in the cells. If they are present then let the bees supercede her if that's what they seem bent on doing. If you don't see any eggs you may want to think about getting a replacement queen as soon as you can.

[psfred]

Immediate supersedure is a problem with package bees, seems to be more so in the last few years from what I read.

There are several causes -- loss of the queen (my brother has had this problem three years running, we finally just swiped a supersedure cell from his other hive and "requeened" last year) is most likely, but the lack of brood sometimes seems to convince the bees the current queen is a dud.

I would follow the recommendation of never cutting out queen cells -- way too likely that the queen is not there and now you have a queenless package, not a good situation. If you have some eggs in another hive, put them in there, otherwise order a new queen if you can get one delivered shortly.

Peter

[Mike in Amboy]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I went back out today to try and find her again. Still no dice. I looked and looked and looked some more. No eggs anywhere, lots of stored pollen, but no eggs. Then I opened up the hive that I had found and marked the queen in, TONS of eggs! The hive with no queen in site, now has 2 supercedure cells going. So question now, will a nursing bee lay an egg in there to make a new queen, or are they hoping the other queen comes along and puts an egg in there? Guess I better order a queen tomorrow

[robherc]

well, if a worker/nurse bee lays an egg; it's 100% sure to be a drone, mo matter how much RJ they feed it....BUT you have a laying queen, and eggs...this gives you options.

You could:
A) <removed high-risk option>
B) <removed high-risk option>
or
C) Move 1-2 frames of eggs &/or VERY young brood over to the queenless hive for them to raise a queen from. (probably the easiest & safest way)...might be a good idea to brush/shake all the bees off of the frame(s) to be sure you don't accidentally move the queen too.


Good luck, and happy queen rearing


P.S. If you're feeling ambitious, you could cut out 1-2 of the queen cells they'll be making for themselves (cut 'em out 10 days after moving the frame of eggs) and place them, with a little emerging brood & a few thousand bees, in mating nucs to increase your hive count.

[fish_stix]

For Goodness Sake! Do not move the queen! Steal a frame of eggs from the good hive and give it to the queenless hive or order a new queen if you can get one quickly. Are the cells you found actual queen cells or just queen cups? Do they contain a larva? If they look like a little round ball with the bottom chopped off and no larva inside it's only a cup and nothing to worry over.

[robherc]

For Goodness Sake! Do not move the queen!

lol, yeah...I prob. shouldn't have said that, should I? ah well....guess I'll re-edit the post & leave that "option" out, as it's really not a very reliable method...

[Mike in Amboy]

LOL, I'm not interested in doing anything to harm the one good Queen I have. I'll check again tomorrow and see if I have any eggs miraculously show up. If not, I'll order a new Queen. Hopefully it won't be that big of a set back for them, although I'm sure it will be. Dangit!

[Mike in Amboy]

Are the cells you found actual queen cells or just queen cups? Do they contain a larva?

They are just getting started on building them. Maybe a 1/2" long at best at this point, if that. They were working on them when I did my inspection. Saw at least one bee with its head burried down inside, the other one was covered with bees and couldnt see the opening.

[robherc]

...could still give them a frame of eggs & let them make their own queen...won't cost you that much more time than ordering one, and she'll be less likely to be immediately superceded

[Mike in Amboy]

If I put a frame with eggs in the no queen hive, will they just turn one of those eggs into a queen even if its not in a supercedure cell? I guess I could do that, that queen is for sure laying eggs, lots of them! I assume like anything, no guarantee they will make a new queen from the new eggs?

[robherc]

nothing's guaranteed with bees, but a queenless hive provided with eggs is the best way to raise a queen

[Mike in Amboy]

I'm ok with doing that then. How long will it take for a new Queen to hatch? Easier to let them do it, or just order a new queen and hit the ground running?

[jdg1938]

Would you prefer homemade apple pie made from scratch or an apple pie store bought out of the freezer. I say let the bees do the work.

[robherc]

Raising egg to laying queen = 1 month, give or take
Ordering = up to 2 weeks....but MUCH higher likelihood of suercedure, in which case the bees revert to the one month plan, just a little later

[Mike in Amboy]

Ok, eggs it is then. Saves me 27 bucks and only puts me back another 2 weeks really. So just so I'm clear...shake/sweep bees off frame of eggs, cover that hive back up, put frame into hive with no queen. Then do I destroy the supercedure cells?

[robherc]

yes, yes, yes, no

clear as mud? (I.E. yes to everything except destroying the cells...they shouldn't hurt anything IMHO)

[Mike in Amboy]

LOL, yes. I just don't want them making another queen after the new one is hatched. That seems counter productive.

[robherc]

general procedure is that the first queen to emerge goes around destroying all other Q cells in the hive...sometimes more than one emerges before all others are killed, then they duel after killing the rest of the cells....any way you go about it, any "other cells" shouldn't be a problem once your queen emerges