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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    This from Joe Waggle (who does an amazing job of tracking this stuff down):

    In accordance with reporting every colony collapse as CCD, we must include
    the following die-offs as CCD events. Especially the 1794 instance in
    Edinburgh which IMO is highly symptomatic of CCD.

    950, 992 and 1443 Ireland In Ireland, there was a “great mortality of
    bees” (Flemming G (1871)

    1794 Edinburgh, Midlothian
    “The following extraordinary instance of the industry of Bees, happened
    this season in a bee hive the property of Mr. John Scotland, Merchant,
    Dunfermline.
    ...What is very remarkable, when
    the hive was smoked, there were not above 200 bees in it..

    1872 Wisconsin Janesville,
    “—A gentleman, in Fond du Lac, who usually keeps a great many bees, states
    that at least two-thirds of his bees died last winter. He thinks that from
    two-thirds to three-quarters of the bees in the county have died this
    year.”

    1879 Illinois
    “Extraordinary Mortality among Bees… One large bee raiser in this State
    who had 220 swarms of bees has now only eighteen, and the other who had
    over 800 swarms has now not a single healthy hive of bees. It has been
    ascertained by correspondence that in New York and the New England States
    over 60 per cent, of the bees have died,..”

    1885 United States
    "The season of 1884-85 stands out in the history of American beekeeping as
    one of terrible devastation" (BEEKEEPING (1915) By E.F. Phillips Pg. 343)

    1885 Iowa
    “…with great unanimity they denounce the honey dew as the cause of the
    unexampled and ruinous losses of bees during the past winter. One bee-
    keeper loses fifty-one out of fifty-three colonies, and the two left, are
    miserably weak. Others have lost ninety-five per cent…”

    1904 United States
    "During the winter of 1903-04 probably seventy percent of the bees in New
    England died." (BEEKEEPING (1915) By E.F. Phillips Pg. 343)

    1904 Wisconsin
    “Hard on the Bees. Bee keepers report that the present winter has been an
    exceptionally hard one on the swarms, and that as a consequence there will
    be a great loss to keepers….”

    1905 Texas
    “…Hard Winter and Too Much Rain Curtails Industry.…. …Phillips, president
    of the Nueces Valley Beekeepers’ Association, states … Last winter the
    beekeepers suffered a loss, of probably 50 percent of their stock, and the
    rains during the spring have been detrimental to the honey flow in the
    flowers up to this time.”

    1910 United States
    "....in 1909-10 the loss was probably fifty per cent in the northeastern
    United States." (BEEKEEPING (1915) By E.F. Phillips Pg. 343)

    1910 Nebraska
    “… The News learns that all, or nearly all, of the bees in this part of
    the state were killed by the severe winter. The owners of a large number
    of hives on examination find that the bees died In the early part of
    winter. This means a shortage in the honey crop. There is now and then a
    hive where there are a few live bees and in some instances a hive or two,
    out of many, escape, but the slaughter was the worst known in this section
    for years.”

    1912 United States
    "The winter of 1911-12 was also one of heavy mortality, the actual death
    of colonies costing the beekeepers in the eastern United States millions
    of dollars." (BEEKEEPING (1915) By E.F. Phillips Pg. 343)

    1912 Illinois
    “The honey crop In central Illinois, will be light this season, due to the
    fact that many of the Insects were killed by the severe temperature of
    last winter. “

    1917 California
    “…Winter losses of bees range from 10 to 15 per cent, and in some states
    the loss was almost 50 per cent during the winter of 1916-17,…”

    1996 New York
    “Two ferocious mites are decimating a bee population already weakened by
    two straight harsh New York winters….” "It's devastating." Just ask
    commercial beekeeper John Earle of Locke, who lost 70 percent of his 900
    hives to the mites…”

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    Finally! Some answers and some good science. uhhhhhh that would be Lazy Shooter, not sure what Dean is rambling about
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    ...sorry, I was distracted by my conference call...I'm waiting for my orders from the home office (Bayer) on what I should post next. It is top secret, so it is coming via BHC (black helicopter courier)...shhhh, don't tell...i'm going to have an inground pool installed in the shape of a crop duster with the $$$$$).

    ...does that make more sense?

    deknow

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    ..more from Joe....

    Report of the Secretary of Agriculture
    By United States Dept. of Agriculture

    =====Article Start=====

    Agricultural Report
    Statistics of Beekeeping

    During the past season a disease suddenly appeared in several states,
    sweeping away whole apiaries. So quiet were its operations that the bee-
    keepers became aware of its existence only by the disappearance of their
    bees. The hives were left, in most cases, full of honey, but with no brood
    and little pollen; the whole appearance of the hive causing the casual
    observer to suppose that the bees had "emigrated;" but close observation
    showed that they had died. We give a number of accounts from various
    correspondents, principally from the states where this disease first raged.

    Jesse R.. Newson, Bartholomew County, Indiana, says: "With an experience
    of twenty-five years, I have not seen so disastrous results among bees as
    in the present year. We generally feel that all is well with our bees, if
    they have succeeded well in laying up a winter supply of food. I have lost
    nineteen stands since the first of November; in some of them as many as
    forty pounds of honey were left, looking very nice, and tasting as well as
    any I ever saw; no sign of moth or any thing wrong that I could see. The
    bees seem to die without a cause. The stand twenty years old is yet
    living. We find in nearly every stand plenty of food, but "what ails the
    bees? What the remedy? If something is not done to stop this fatality,
    this pleasing and useful pastime will be taken from us, and our tables
    will be robbed of honey."

    A. Leslie, Pike County, Indiana, says: "Nearly all our bees have died in
    this county, perishing mostly in November, supposed to be for want of bee-
    bread."

    S. G. Bates, Boone County, says: "The mortality among the bees this winter
    cannot be accounted for, since they have plenty of food. Out of twelve
    hives I this day took three hundred pounds of honey"; not a young bee to
    be found; the comb clear and healthy. My opinion is, that the queen, from
    some reason, not having deposited eggs, is the cause of their death."

    T. J. Conuett, of Austin, Scott County, Indiana, says: "There is a disease
    prevailing to an alarming extent among our bees this fall that is entirely
    new, nobody being able to find any cause or remedy. Old and substantial
    swarms die, leaving the hive full of honey and bee-bread. Full three-
    fourths of the swarms are dead, as far as I have heard from them."

    J. N. Webb, Newcastle, Henry County, Kentucky, says : " There were no
    swarms last spring, so far as is known. The bees, however, continued
    to work and lay up their stores until some time in August, or early in
    September, when, to the consternation and utter surprise of the bee-
    raiser, they were all found to have died. Many swarms left well-stored
    stands of excellent honey, amply sufficient to carry them through the
    winter; and what is more strange, comparatively few of the bees were
    found dead at the hives. What was the cause of the wholesale destruction
    of this useful and interesting insect, dying in the midst of plenty, away
    from its hive, we cannot understand. Up to the time when the discovery was
    made, no frosts had come, no atmospheric change had taken place, out of
    the ordinary course, and in fact nothing to which it may have been
    rationally attributed."

    T. Hullman, jr., of Terre Haute, Indiana, writes as follows: " In
    September last, when the first cold weather set in, my bees began to die.
    First, I found in one of my best stands, with all the frames full of
    sealed honey, and some honey in boxes, the bees all dead. After that the
    bees began to die in all my stands, mostly pure Italians, and some
    hybrids. First, about one-third of the bees would be found dead; next, I
    would find the queen lying dead before the hive; and in about a week more,
    the whole colony would be found dead in and around the hive. Sometimes the
    queen would live with a handful of bees. The hives were full of honey,
    gathered the latter part of the season ; and the smallest had enough for
    the bees to winter upon. In this way I have lost forty stands, and have
    now only fifteen skeleton colonies, which I think will also perish before
    spring. At first I thought I was the only victim, but I have ascertained
    that all the bees in this neighborhood have died, and as far as thirty
    miles north and eighteen south. Yesterday I saw a letter from Kentucky,
    from a man who thought his bees had stampeded in the same manner as mine,
    to the hive of mother-earth. Some colonies had broods others had not. Late
    in October all the queens commenced laying again. To some colonies I gave
    three queens in about two weeks, and they lost each in turn."

    The true cause of the disease has not been discovered. Some attribute it
    to the want of pollen; some to poisonous honey; and some to the unusually
    hot summer. Whatever may be the cause, the effect has been most
    disastrous, throughout these two States.

    =====End Article=====


    It may appear CCD is making a resurgence. You may perhaps have noticed
    the old writing style, or terms used in the Agriculture Report. If you
    have, good work, because the article is from 1869, reporting on the
    honeybee mortality of 1868.

    Is history repeating itself? There are a few similarities, not only with
    some of thesymptoms, but more strikingly, in the human reaction.

    As the CCD of today has some calling it the AIDS of bees, In the years
    following the 1868 bee mortality, that disease has been paralleled to
    another disease feared by humans at that time, -Cholera. The bee disease
    of 1868 became known as “Bee Cholera”.

    In fact, in the years following the 1868 bee mortality, the panic was so
    severe with consumers, newspaper reports state that “consumers refuse to
    buy what is called Bee Cholera Honey, -where the bees have died of this
    disease, consumers don’t like it, and the doctors think it is dangerous to
    life.”

    In 1869, fear spreads amongst beekeepers the same as with today’s CCD,
    which as in both instances, created a need for blame. During the Bee
    Cholera die off, articles in the Bee journals quote beekeepers as
    saying: “Bee Cholera was not known in the United States until the Italian
    bee was introduced”, and the belief that the Italian bee was to blame
    endured for years.

    In the article below, please find the symptoms associated with the Bee
    Cholera,of 1868, so you can make your own diagnosis.

    Page 34 Annals of Bee Culture

    The Bee Cholera of 1868.

    By D. L. Adiar.

    During the fall of 1868 and following winter, honey bees died in
    great numbers throughout a large portion of the States of Ohio,
    Indiana and Kentucky, in a manner not before noticed in diseases of
    that insect. All the bees in some large Apiaries died or disappeared, and
    over large districts scarcely a colony escaped, and the few that still
    survive
    are in a diseased and weak condition. From my own observation,
    and a correspondence with parties, in different parts of the infected
    district, I have ascertained the existence during the fall and winter of
    following unusual conditions of the hives.

    1. The honey stored by the bees from about the 20th of July was of
    a bad quality. When taken from the hives it fermented in a short while,
    and a great deal of it fermented in the hives.

    2. The honey not only fermented in the cells that were uncapped, but
    in those that had been sealed up.

    3. The fermentation partially decomposed the wax covers of the cells,
    turning them an ashy gray, giving them a bleached or faded appearance,
    and bubbles or froth oozed through.

    4. The honey was of a peculiar reddish color, and somewhat turbid,
    and of a bitter disagreeable taste.

    5. In the first stages of the fermentation, the honey was viscous, slimy
    or ropy. It afterwards lost its viscous character, and emitted an odor
    like rancid butter, which I suppose to be butyric acid, developed perhaps
    by the decomposition of the wax. The honey up to this time (1st of
    Feby. 1869) still retains some of that odor, and is yet turbid.

    6. The bees did not commence dying until the honey in the hives
    showed fermentation, about the 20th of August.

    7. There was an unusual activity about the diseased hives, the bees
    flying in great numbers before and around the hives, and excitedly
    running in and out, apparently greatly confused or disturbed.

    8. The abdomen of the bees, after death, was considerably swollen, and
    filled with an offensive fluid, and some of them are now, after being dead
    four months, as soft and pliant, as if they had just died, not having
    stiffened or dried up in the least

    From these observations I infer that the disease was induced by the
    unhealthfulness of the honey.

    Best Wishes,
    Joe
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/H...eybeeArticles/

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    Yes, history is repeating itself w/ periodic diebacks of bees. It seems to happen cyclically (sp?).

    AIDS = Apiary Inspector Disease Syndrom. This was first stated in an article in The Speedy Bee many years ago. A cpl of decades ago actually, I believe.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    Nice post Dean

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    Dean, I wish to double camero7's comment.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    Please give the credit where it is due...to Joe Waggle....he does an incredible job with his historical research and references.

    deknow

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    Some of this fits the CCD symptoms much better than the Harvard study does.

    deknow

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Imidacoprid linked to CCD

    You need to Contact Dr. Jeff Pettus and let him fill you in on the collapse that happened in Alabama back in the early 90's. It was the first incident of CCD like symptoms in the USA other than the "disappearing diseases" that happen cyclical from 1972 on back into history. Which brings me to the point of the posting. A lot of colonies that have died from CCD in the past few years are not located near crops sprayed with pesticides. These apiaries are located out in woodlots and pastures. Nor were they moved to crops for pollination purposes. They are located in a closed border state were it takes a compliance agreement to cross the border with bees on comb. So there is more than one culprit as has been suggested in scientific data for the cause of CCD. TED
    ALABAMA BEE COMPANY-A member of the Sioux Honey association -*Sweetening a golden tommorrow*

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Really? How so and what was it called then?
    And while the rest of us try to logically figure out what is happening to our bees you are hung up on the name versus the symptoms/end results, lol.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    I guess I'm hung up on "accuracy". The reports noted above should be given due credence. Mass bee die-off's have happened for a very long time. We don't even begin to have an idea of all the possible causes.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrobisr View Post
    And while the rest of us try to logically figure out what is happening to our bees you are hung up on the name versus the symptoms/end results, lol.
    If you will delve into History, it has always been so. None of the past die offs resulted in conclusive evidence as to what exactly killed off mass numbers of bees, other than the AFB Epidemic of the early 20th Century. The cause of the Isle of Wight Disease was supposedly tracheal mites. But, I don't think there was evidence to prove it.

    People have been spending umpteen millions of dollars and hours of labor trying to figure out what is causing what we now call CCD. Calling it by a name is what gave us a handle to intellectually grab onto it and go in front of Congress for funding for research and indemnity programs. So, calling it something is important, don't you think?

    Consumption became Cancer, which scares the beejeezus out of folks. Scaring people leads to funding research.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I guess I'm hung up on "accuracy". The reports noted above should be given due credence. Mass bee die-off's have happened for a very long time. We don't even begin to have an idea of all the possible causes.

    DarJones
    If beekeepers would deal w/ the things which kill their bees in an effective manner we could reduce diebacks by a great percentage. I haven't seen a recent AIA report on what colony deaths across the Nation are attributed to by category, but, CCD related causes of colony mortality were a small portion of the 30% winterloss of a cpl of years back. And this years winterloiss seems less amongst folks that I know of and hear of.

    So, if people can address problems which can be addressed, starvation, varroa mites, etc., maybe we could just accept that there are some colony mortalities which we can't diagnose and just get on w/ our beekeeping w/out bemoaning a small percentage of loss.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    So, if people can address problems which can be addressed, starvation, varroa mites, etc., maybe we could just accept that there are some colony mortalities which we can't diagnose and just get on w/ our beekeeping w/out bemoaning a small percentage of loss.
    I heartily concur. Perhaps I am in a minority here, perhaps not but had I not been reading all the reports about the plight of the honeybee in recent years, I would be totally unaware that there was some sort of crisis in the industry. It's just been business as usual for us since I first read the thread which I believe was titled "Bees dying in Florida/Georgia".
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Here is an article coauthored by Dennis vanEngelsdorp:
    http://www.beeculture.com/content/Co...Engelsdorp.pdf
    Similar to the historical list that deknow posted. The fact that there have been mass die-offs of honeybee populations in the past does neither prove no disprove any effects of neonicotinoids on honeybees. It is irrelevant to a discussion of neonicotinoids, it can be presented as an argument just as a "the gamblers fallacy" in having some belief in "runs" that are independent of statistics, but it is irrelevant.

    Here is a more recent article coauthored by Dennis vanEngelsdorp which demonstrates the effects of imidacloprid (at levels of exposure commonly encountered) on honeybee health.
    The finding that individual bees with undetectable levels of the target pesticide, after being reared in a sub-lethal pesticide environment within the colony, had higher Nosema is significant. Interactions between pesticides and pathogens could be a major contributor to increased mortality of honey bee colonies, including colony collapse disorder, and other pollinator declines worldwide.
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/.../fulltext.html
    “We wage a war to save civilization itself”
    --George w. Bush November 8, 2001

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by BoBn View Post
    The fact that there have been mass die-offs of honeybee populations in the past does neither prove no disprove any effects of neonicotinoids on honeybees.
    ...and the corollary is that demonstrating that insecticides are toxic to insects says nothing about the cause of dieoffs. This is what we are discussing here...the study in question claims to connect imidacloprid and a series of bee die offs...yet the symptoms of the dieoffs don't match the induced symptoms by feeding imidacloprid. The facts are that die offs (boom and bust) are an integral part of insect populations. The historical record is that there have been dieoffs that resemble what is being reported today since well before neonics were invented.


    Here is a more recent article coauthored by Dennis vanEngelsdorp which demonstrates the effects of imidacloprid (at levels of exposure commonly encountered) on honeybee health.
    ...except that the effect was only observed in caged trials...Jeff Pettis is quoted as saying that they did not see the same effect on free flying colonies. They also did some curious things....like not testing the bees that died in the cages for imidacloprid residue. Bees are not bees when they are in cages.

    deknow

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    . Bees are not bees when they are in cages.
    deknow
    Exactly. If we consider a bee colony to be a superorganism with all its age dependent differentiation of tasks and functions carried out by each and every individual bee, what do we learn from holding a single bee in a little glass tube and feeding it some toxin or other until it dies. The results of the field studies are what matters which is where the RFID studies may prove to be very helpful.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...except that the effect was only observed in caged trials...
    Strange how caged bees can drift between colonies and go out to forage on crops.:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffery S. Pettis, Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Josephine Johnson and Galen Dively
    We also found traces of imidacloprid in bees and bee bread collected from control colonies. This imidacloprid exposure in our controls may have been the result of bee drift between experimental colonies and/or from exposure resulting from foraging on treated agricultural crops in the vicinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    not testing the bees that died in the cages for imidacloprid residue

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffery S. Pettis, Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Josephine Johnson and Galen Dively
    no imidacloprid residues could be found in the newly emerged worker bees challenged in our study (Table 1), (3) our test bees could only have received pesticide exposure during larval development, thus (4) pesticide exposure to test bees could only have been indirectly from brood food from nurse bees (Winston 1987) that were exposed as they fed on imidacloprid-spiked protein.
    How do you test for a substance that is known to be below detection limits of a testing procedure?
    “We wage a war to save civilization itself”
    --George w. Bush November 8, 2001

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Harvard study on neonics and bee deaths - download full text

    Quote Originally Posted by BoBn View Post
    ... How do you test for a substance that is known to be below detection limits of a testing procedure?
    I don't know. Maybe the same test used for Alien abductions?
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

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