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Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

69K views 180 replies 23 participants last post by  Rader Sidetrack 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been thinking over the last few days that in order to compare the various swarm prevention methods, especially Checkerboarding and Opening the Brood Nest, I think it's worth making a list of the general stages (not considering the age of the hive) and factors in spring buildup that contribute to Reproduction Swarms.

This is what I believe happens as concisely as possible. If I have things out of place or just plain wrong let me know.

  • A couple of inches of capped honey around the outside of the brood nest is seen as the boundary of the colony.
  • Space is created in the brood nest by consumption of honey during winter, aiding in heating, and then during spring build up, generally moving upwards.
  • Due to lower temperatures, clustering continues, especially at night and so nectar is preferred to be stored in the brood nest.
  • Large amounts of pollen are available in early spring and this is stored in the brood nest to raise increasing amounts of brood. This is determined by cluster size.
  • Brood are often raised in batches during spring buildup due to limited space. Brood population can almost double with each batch. As the brood nest expands, gradually all stages of brood are present.
  • Wax making capabilities are very limited in late winter and early spring due to temperatures being too low and limited incoming nectar. So extension of comb is limited.
  • Expanding areas of brood, and storage of nectar and pollen in the brood nest by foragers puts pressure on the available space in the brood nest.
  • During a spring flow, empty cells are quickly filled by the foragers with nectar, before the Queen finds them.
  • Empty cells become less and less very quickly as they are filled with nectar. Quickly reducing the amount of open brood.
  • The Queen starts loosing weight due to laying less and less eggs.
  • With a large amount of young Nurse Bees, any very young brood start getting a lot of attention and large amounts of Royal Jelly is available to get deposited into these cells, making ideal conditions for Queen Cell building.
  • Once the brood nest is backfilled with nectar, and there is a large number of unemployed Nurse Bees, then queen cells are built.
  • Due to little space to store nectar, Nurse Bees are also full of nectar. This aids in preparing for wax production. (It is held on to as long as possible, in preparation for a swarm.)
  • The Nurse Bees are now ready to swarm as soon as weather permits.
  • Scouts start searching for a new hive location.
  • When ready to leave, a signal is sounded and bees (especially Nurse Bees) start flowing out of the hive, chasing the Queen out as they go to get her to leave with them.


Contributing factors to Swarming
So when looking at the stages in spring buildup it seems that the main issues in causing swarm conditions are backfilling of the brood nest with nectar, which then causes there to be large numbers of unoccupied Nurse Bees. Once there is a large number of unoccupied Nurse Bees, opening the brood nest may not be enough to prevent a swarm.

Checkerboarding attempts to get the foragers to store nectar above the brood nest rather than in it, by providing empty comb above the brood nest. Ideally this is done before nectar sources becomes plentiful. It becomes clear that this leaves the brood nest free from congestion and allows for maximum population. All stages of brood continue throughout the spring buildup. Ensuring there is enough open brood to keep large numbers of Nurse Bees occupied. The issue with Checkerboarding for those new to beekeeping is lack of drawn comb.

Opening the Brood Nest does not stop backfilling of the brood nest with nectar. Rather it tries to maintain enough space in the brood nest to allow for backfilling, while maintaining enough space for the queen to lay and to ensure that there is always open brood to keep Nurse Bees occupied. Placing empty frames or foundation in the brood nest encourages wax builders earlier in the season, but wax making uses extra nectar and likely requires higher temperatures in wax making areas, again using more nectar.

Conclusion
So based on that, it seems that deterring foragers from storing nectar in the brood nest in the first place looks like the best way to prevent swarms, produce a higher population and to yield a larger honey crop.


Thanks to Walt Wright and Michael Bush and to everyone else who contributed to the Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest thread with helped in developing this. I certainly learnt much from it.

Hope people find this useful.
Matthew Davey
 
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#161 ·
Having read Walts book. and considering teh discussion on this leads to that.

It is not just the prevention of backfilling. In fact that description flies int eh face of exactly what Walt is trying to say. you are again in a frame of thinking that is about preventing what the bees are doing rather than working with them. At one point Walt addresses this directly. STOP trying to make the bees do what you want. (Not filling the nest) and help them do what they want to do in excess (expand). Is is the manipulation at the time they are expanding that increases that expansion. it increases it so much that the bees never have a prayer of filling it back in. but when they do . let them. let them pack in nectar to their little hearts content. it will all be honey in the end. honey for you to harvest. Help them they can't make the deadline anyway. When they do miss the deadline they will expand again. You removed a lot of that honey making it easier for them. All you need to do is give them room.

Also take careful note of Walts warning about thinning the honey in the late summer. You can carry this to far.

Another key point. make the manipulation before it is needed. That means be one step ahead of the bees at every turn. add space before they know they will want it. remove honey before they make the decision to start eating it. Anticipate their next move and start the work for them.

That is mostly what I see Walt is trying to get across. If "Keeping the bees from..." is anywhere in your thoughts or words. you are already to late. Watch yourself for thoughts like, "I am helping the bees do..." I think you will find your timing and your focus will be more in line with the management method.
 
#162 ·
D. Y.
I suppose you could look at that way, but I don't necessarily agree. I consider myself a pragmatist. I judge concepts by results of application. I don't need to understand all the details or theory of the principles involved, if on appication, the results tend to support the unproven observation. A couple of examples:

Observation: The broodnest expansion stops short of the total overhead capped honey reserve, and the backfilling of swarm preps starts.
..A one-season test of the concept was accomplished by wintering in an extra super of honey at the top. The results were less swarming, larger populations, and better honey production. The concept was supported by the results.
..Next step - try checkerboarding. The results of that test were a pleasent surprise. Almost unbelievable in a highly swarm prone area. 12 colonies - no swarms, more brood, and more production. Went all-up on CB the following season. Same results for several seasons. The results confirmed the preliminary observation.
..What I still don't know is WHY it works so reliably.

Observation: The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep and their use of the deep inhibits the storing of their natural pollen reserve below the broodnest (in the southeast)
..To test those observations, over a 2 year period, a wintering configuration change was made and a pollen box maneuver was added to seasonal management.
..The results tend to validate the observations. We now have reliable wintering, year-round brood in the single deep, excellent populations, and twice the production of contemporaries.
..Nobody knows how, or if, bees think.

Walt
 
#170 ·
Observation: The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep and their use of the deep inhibits the storing of their natural pollen reserve below the broodnest (in the southeast)
I have a hunch that the farther north you go the more pollen you will find below the brood nest. It could be the bees not only use the pollen as food but also insulation. Maybe the lack of pollen in a single 5 frame nuc lowers the bees chance of survival because of the lack of pollen below. These are all hunches.
 
#163 ·
Walt, I will just offer this. Not written by me but I completely agree with it. It also indicates that anything that you have concluded from your observations has a very small chance of being correct. and that is each individual conclusion.

At most we know something that in fact works for you. May work for others. but we know nothing of bees. So it depends on just what you are happy knowing.

Anyway this is a taken from Michael Bushes web site
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm
And is discussing how something observed seems to have obviously been caused by something else. it in fact was not. not even close.

I love scientific studies. I have read many of them on many subjects from cover to cover. There is much to be learned by them. I often disagree with the conclusions drawn by the researchers though.

"Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" (After this therefore because of this) is the primary error in logic and is a trap fallen into by humans and animals alike. The big temptation of this error is that "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" is a good basis for a theory. The error isn't using it for a theory it's using it as proof.

"Let's examine the error of this, first. Every morning at my house, the roosters crow. Every morning after the roosters crow, the sun comes up. Does this mean that the roosters cause the sun to come up? Because we can't see any mechanism to connect them other than the sequence of events, most of us would assume that the roosters are not the cause."

Now in many cases we are far more convinced that an even proceeding is the cause of the event that follows with far less requirement of the mechanism. So much so that we often find situations in which people accept as fact that the event is caused by the proceeding event.
 
#164 ·
Walt, ... It also indicates that anything that you have concluded from your observations has a very small chance of being correct.
Daniel Y posts are usually good for a hearty belly laugh, and this one is no exception! :lpf: Do you actually believe even half of what you write?
:eek:
Perhaps you should read further down the same page you quote from Michael Bush:

I've always been a bit amazed and amused that everyone always seems to think that on any issue one person is wrong and the other is right. Especially when that difference is based on each person's observations, and most especially when it relates to something as complex as bees.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm
:digging:
 
#165 ·
Rader, Have you read Walts book?

One example of an extreme inconsistency. Evidently the bees are able to measure the volume of honey they have but completely lack any awareness of the volume of brood. Yet nothing supports that bees can measure and track volumes of any kind. Walt says they both have and lack that ability as that ability or deficiency suites his theory. which is it?
 
#166 ·
Personally I'm on the forums to see other people's experiences and observations. The theories are their own, and I have my own as well. I don't see the point arguing over something if it works. But it is nice to know why it works.

Anyway, I tried an experiment with a hive I have on a farm. It was only 8 frames and I only moved one frame up into the next box I placed on it about 3 weeks before swarm season. This was to see if they would fill the cavity or just complete the brood nest and swarm.

They only built comb on the frame where the one was removed from and abandoned the frame above the brood nest. They swarmed on Thursday.

There are more details here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276389-A-hive-Post-swarm

The thing I want to point out here is the type of wax used for the queen cells. Most we're from recycled old wax. Only two were new wax. (Of which one broke apart.)

Here are the remaining seven queen cells:



Matthew Davey
 
#167 ·
Daniel,
Perhaps I will learn to ignore your self-appointed expertise, as others imply would be justified, but your accusation struck a nerve.

My long-standing observation on colony control of population with respect to stores is that they have a unique skill (instinct) for maintaining population in proportion to cavity size and stores available. They do this by adjustment of brood volume. The concept is readily seen in 2 side by side colonies housed in different cavity volumes.

Preoccupied with reproduction in late winter, the colony overwintered in a deep and shallow makes all the brood volume adjustments within the deep - saving the shallow of honey above for their reserve. Insurance for the swarm prep period.

In the double deep, brood volume grows into half the upper deep. Again, leaving about a shallow supers worth of capped honey outside the shoulders of the expansion arch of brood. In both cases, the temporary expansion to rear swarm bees is refilled with nectar in the first action of swarm preps. (backfilling)

Another surge in brood volume starts in Aug. to rear young bees for wintering. Broodnest closeout starts a couple months later. Both these increases/decreases depend on field forage support, but when available, the colony normally maintains a good balance of population to cavity size and stores.

Where you find a discrepancy between the manuscript and the above, please let me know. It needs correction.

Walt
 
#168 · (Edited)
Walt. You wrote a book to make your point. I am making mine in paragraphs. The error exists. others can learn about it or continue to follow a path riddled with such errors.

Beekeeping for centuries has not been able to figure out why the bee does not respond to traditional methods of breeding the best to the best and achieving better results. During that time breeds among other animals where developed. Yet not one breed of bee has ever resulted. Regardless of this evidence that it was not working. beekeepers persisted based upon the belief that it works for other animals it must work for bees also. That is until the mechanism of sex determination in a bees was discovered. That alone was proof of why breeding the best to the best does not in fact work for bees. Not when managed like other animals.

This is a case where opinion or conclusion is supported and accepted over fact. Truth is beekeepers where wrong. they where always wrong. they wasted a colossal amount of time because they ignored that they where obviously wrong. go ahead and start listing all the evidence they where right. they couldn't have been. that has been proven. Bees don't respond to breeding the best to the best. in fact it is a mistake. But beekeepers can't tolerate being told they are wrong. I am looking for one thing. do it right. Start keeping bees in a way that works. then I will consider you have found something.

So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.

I do not consider you among them. You obviously recognize a problem and have gone to great lengths to understand the prevention of those problems. Maybe not so much the causes.

That is like standing at the head of a long line of crippled people handing out crutches. But never making any effort to prevent people from becoming crippled. Two different jobs. one is far more complex than the other.
 
#169 ·
So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.
You probably don't perceive yourself as one of these "beekeepers in general" I'm guessing.
 
#175 ·
Absolutely. :D Just ask Ace! :lookout:


I won't be surprised if this goes over your head, Daniel, but here it is anyway. Its perfectly OK to have a difference of opinion in how to manage (or not manage) bees. You certainly do not have to agree with Walt's conclusions, and you can certainly point out where Walt went wrong in your opinion. Walt even invited you to do that.

But when, in response, you start tossing out insulting epithets like "colossal idiot", and "too stupid to listen to", in reference to an experienced Beesource member who has done nothing more than provide his beekeeping observations and conclusions, you lose all credibility. And then I will post your past brilliant comments and highlight just how foolish you are. :eek:

I can't believe you actually like looking foolish ... so why don't you change your behavior? :scratch:
 
#179 ·
Walt, I read your book. and to you directly I thnk you for the time and effort. I know it is not knew to you to hear that the way the book is written is confusing. I found it to be also.
I do not question your observations. In fact I full intend to explore them for myself. In other words I believe you saw what you say you saw ans it had the repeatability that you report. What is in question and not because I say so but because conclusions are prone to error. Is what caused those behaviors you observed. I believe you have watched time and again bees remove honey from the hive and fill it with brood. this I accept as fact. What is suspect is the conclusion they are doing it to produce brood. Brood could be a side effect. And proving it one way or another could be critical. It is critical to our ability to understand the bee.
Regardless of what anyone else said or how my comments may have struck you nerves. nothing I have said is intended to be a comment on yrou intelligence your ability to observe. It is that yoru observations have so far stopped at that. observations. and the work is far from complete. I don't think you have been given adequate consideration. I think others should be taking up on this and looking for the mechanisms. but that is just me. I don't think you can do it alone. I don't think the beekeeping as a whole will get behind you. and that is my ***** if I have one. And ti is not really a *****. I don't care if beekeepers ever figure out one more thing. If they don't and I am talking about beekeepers as a whole, it is due in large to their own ignorance. and determination to stay in the rut they are in. If anything my comments came from an unfairness that I see you are being subjected to. a justifiable one? maybe. I think beekeeping is tired of seeing one more promise of better days and then seeing nothing. or worse being punished for trying it. And you are amidst that weather you deserve it or not.

Anyway all fo this to me is a wste of time. nobody is goign to take up a converstaion on a subject and actually chew the issue over. They jsut resort to insults. Enjoy it I will be looking for answers. I am just not comfortable with leaving you thinking my comments have been an attack on you or your observations. If you take it as so All I can ask is your forgiveness. they are not intended to be. And I can't do more than that.
 
#180 ·
Anyway all fo this to me is a wste of time. nobody is goign to take up a converstaion on a subject and actually chew the issue over. They jsut resort to insults. Enjoy it I will be looking for answers. I am just not comfortable with leaving you thinking my comments have been an attack on you or your observations. If you take it as so All I can ask is your forgiveness. they are not intended to be. And I can't do more than that.
:digging:and the hole is getting deeper so lets let ease up a bit ¡¡¡!!! this 101 so KISS folks
 
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