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  1. #161
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Having read Walts book. and considering teh discussion on this leads to that.

    It is not just the prevention of backfilling. In fact that description flies int eh face of exactly what Walt is trying to say. you are again in a frame of thinking that is about preventing what the bees are doing rather than working with them. At one point Walt addresses this directly. STOP trying to make the bees do what you want. (Not filling the nest) and help them do what they want to do in excess (expand). Is is the manipulation at the time they are expanding that increases that expansion. it increases it so much that the bees never have a prayer of filling it back in. but when they do . let them. let them pack in nectar to their little hearts content. it will all be honey in the end. honey for you to harvest. Help them they can't make the deadline anyway. When they do miss the deadline they will expand again. You removed a lot of that honey making it easier for them. All you need to do is give them room.

    Also take careful note of Walts warning about thinning the honey in the late summer. You can carry this to far.

    Another key point. make the manipulation before it is needed. That means be one step ahead of the bees at every turn. add space before they know they will want it. remove honey before they make the decision to start eating it. Anticipate their next move and start the work for them.

    That is mostly what I see Walt is trying to get across. If "Keeping the bees from..." is anywhere in your thoughts or words. you are already to late. Watch yourself for thoughts like, "I am helping the bees do..." I think you will find your timing and your focus will be more in line with the management method.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #162
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    D. Y.
    I suppose you could look at that way, but I don't necessarily agree. I consider myself a pragmatist. I judge concepts by results of application. I don't need to understand all the details or theory of the principles involved, if on appication, the results tend to support the unproven observation. A couple of examples:

    Observation: The broodnest expansion stops short of the total overhead capped honey reserve, and the backfilling of swarm preps starts.
    ..A one-season test of the concept was accomplished by wintering in an extra super of honey at the top. The results were less swarming, larger populations, and better honey production. The concept was supported by the results.
    ..Next step - try checkerboarding. The results of that test were a pleasent surprise. Almost unbelievable in a highly swarm prone area. 12 colonies - no swarms, more brood, and more production. Went all-up on CB the following season. Same results for several seasons. The results confirmed the preliminary observation.
    ..What I still don't know is WHY it works so reliably.

    Observation: The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep and their use of the deep inhibits the storing of their natural pollen reserve below the broodnest (in the southeast)
    ..To test those observations, over a 2 year period, a wintering configuration change was made and a pollen box maneuver was added to seasonal management.
    ..The results tend to validate the observations. We now have reliable wintering, year-round brood in the single deep, excellent populations, and twice the production of contemporaries.
    ..Nobody knows how, or if, bees think.

    Walt

  3. #163
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Walt, I will just offer this. Not written by me but I completely agree with it. It also indicates that anything that you have concluded from your observations has a very small chance of being correct. and that is each individual conclusion.

    At most we know something that in fact works for you. May work for others. but we know nothing of bees. So it depends on just what you are happy knowing.

    Anyway this is a taken from Michael Bushes web site
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm
    And is discussing how something observed seems to have obviously been caused by something else. it in fact was not. not even close.

    I love scientific studies. I have read many of them on many subjects from cover to cover. There is much to be learned by them. I often disagree with the conclusions drawn by the researchers though.

    "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" (After this therefore because of this) is the primary error in logic and is a trap fallen into by humans and animals alike. The big temptation of this error is that "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" is a good basis for a theory. The error isn't using it for a theory it's using it as proof.

    "Let's examine the error of this, first. Every morning at my house, the roosters crow. Every morning after the roosters crow, the sun comes up. Does this mean that the roosters cause the sun to come up? Because we can't see any mechanism to connect them other than the sequence of events, most of us would assume that the roosters are not the cause."

    Now in many cases we are far more convinced that an even proceeding is the cause of the event that follows with far less requirement of the mechanism. So much so that we often find situations in which people accept as fact that the event is caused by the proceeding event.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Walt, ... It also indicates that anything that you have concluded from your observations has a very small chance of being correct.
    Daniel Y posts are usually good for a hearty belly laugh, and this one is no exception! Do you actually believe even half of what you write?

    Perhaps you should read further down the same page you quote from Michael Bush:

    I've always been a bit amazed and amused that everyone always seems to think that on any issue one person is wrong and the other is right. Especially when that difference is based on each person's observations, and most especially when it relates to something as complex as bees.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  5. #165
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Rader, Have you read Walts book?

    One example of an extreme inconsistency. Evidently the bees are able to measure the volume of honey they have but completely lack any awareness of the volume of brood. Yet nothing supports that bees can measure and track volumes of any kind. Walt says they both have and lack that ability as that ability or deficiency suites his theory. which is it?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  6. #166
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Personally I'm on the forums to see other people's experiences and observations. The theories are their own, and I have my own as well. I don't see the point arguing over something if it works. But it is nice to know why it works.

    Anyway, I tried an experiment with a hive I have on a farm. It was only 8 frames and I only moved one frame up into the next box I placed on it about 3 weeks before swarm season. This was to see if they would fill the cavity or just complete the brood nest and swarm.

    They only built comb on the frame where the one was removed from and abandoned the frame above the brood nest. They swarmed on Thursday.

    There are more details here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ive-Post-swarm

    The thing I want to point out here is the type of wax used for the queen cells. Most we're from recycled old wax. Only two were new wax. (Of which one broke apart.)

    Here are the remaining seven queen cells:



    Matthew Davey

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Daniel,
    Perhaps I will learn to ignore your self-appointed expertise, as others imply would be justified, but your accusation struck a nerve.

    My long-standing observation on colony control of population with respect to stores is that they have a unique skill (instinct) for maintaining population in proportion to cavity size and stores available. They do this by adjustment of brood volume. The concept is readily seen in 2 side by side colonies housed in different cavity volumes.

    Preoccupied with reproduction in late winter, the colony overwintered in a deep and shallow makes all the brood volume adjustments within the deep - saving the shallow of honey above for their reserve. Insurance for the swarm prep period.

    In the double deep, brood volume grows into half the upper deep. Again, leaving about a shallow supers worth of capped honey outside the shoulders of the expansion arch of brood. In both cases, the temporary expansion to rear swarm bees is refilled with nectar in the first action of swarm preps. (backfilling)

    Another surge in brood volume starts in Aug. to rear young bees for wintering. Broodnest closeout starts a couple months later. Both these increases/decreases depend on field forage support, but when available, the colony normally maintains a good balance of population to cavity size and stores.

    Where you find a discrepancy between the manuscript and the above, please let me know. It needs correction.

    Walt

  8. #168
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Walt. You wrote a book to make your point. I am making mine in paragraphs. The error exists. others can learn about it or continue to follow a path riddled with such errors.

    Beekeeping for centuries has not been able to figure out why the bee does not respond to traditional methods of breeding the best to the best and achieving better results. During that time breeds among other animals where developed. Yet not one breed of bee has ever resulted. Regardless of this evidence that it was not working. beekeepers persisted based upon the belief that it works for other animals it must work for bees also. That is until the mechanism of sex determination in a bees was discovered. That alone was proof of why breeding the best to the best does not in fact work for bees. Not when managed like other animals.

    This is a case where opinion or conclusion is supported and accepted over fact. Truth is beekeepers where wrong. they where always wrong. they wasted a colossal amount of time because they ignored that they where obviously wrong. go ahead and start listing all the evidence they where right. they couldn't have been. that has been proven. Bees don't respond to breeding the best to the best. in fact it is a mistake. But beekeepers can't tolerate being told they are wrong. I am looking for one thing. do it right. Start keeping bees in a way that works. then I will consider you have found something.

    So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.

    I do not consider you among them. You obviously recognize a problem and have gone to great lengths to understand the prevention of those problems. Maybe not so much the causes.

    That is like standing at the head of a long line of crippled people handing out crutches. But never making any effort to prevent people from becoming crippled. Two different jobs. one is far more complex than the other.
    Last edited by Daniel Y; 12-11-2012 at 05:10 AM.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #169
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.
    You probably don't perceive yourself as one of these "beekeepers in general" I'm guessing.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #170
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Observation: The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep and their use of the deep inhibits the storing of their natural pollen reserve below the broodnest (in the southeast)
    I have a hunch that the farther north you go the more pollen you will find below the brood nest. It could be the bees not only use the pollen as food but also insulation. Maybe the lack of pollen in a single 5 frame nuc lowers the bees chance of survival because of the lack of pollen below. These are all hunches.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #171
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.
    Daniel Ys words above are coming from a guy that is "too stupid" to recognize that using his State of Nevada employer owned vehicle (University of Nevada) for personal use, in violation of Nevada law, is a criminal act. In fact, he even boasts in other Beesource threads about using this state vehicle to gather "free" beekeeping supplies, then says its OK because some of his fellow workers also do it.

    The sordid details are in this thread:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...p-hobby/page10
    The details are spread over several posts starting at post #192.

    And now Daniel Y says Walt is in the "colossal idiot file". Huh. I invite you to judge for yourselves.


    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  12. #172
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    You probably don't perceive yourself as one of these "beekeepers in general" I'm guessing.
    it must be really difficult to be the only sane person in a world where everyone else is crazy.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #173
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Oct. 28th, 2012. Speaks for itself.

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...396#post862396
    Regards, Barry

  14. #174
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Rader are you capable of forming an opinion about anything but me?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  15. #175
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Rader are you capable of forming an opinion about anything but me?
    Absolutely. Just ask Ace!


    I won't be surprised if this goes over your head, Daniel, but here it is anyway. Its perfectly OK to have a difference of opinion in how to manage (or not manage) bees. You certainly do not have to agree with Walt's conclusions, and you can certainly point out where Walt went wrong in your opinion. Walt even invited you to do that.

    But when, in response, you start tossing out insulting epithets like "colossal idiot", and "too stupid to listen to", in reference to an experienced Beesource member who has done nothing more than provide his beekeeping observations and conclusions, you lose all credibility. And then I will post your past brilliant comments and highlight just how foolish you are.

    I can't believe you actually like looking foolish ... so why don't you change your behavior?
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  16. #176
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Walt and I argue alot about his conclusions, but never about his observations. In this case, I back him entirely.

    As for all of us being crazy and stupid, we must have been doing it all wrong for the last 160 years.

    Crazy Roland

  17. #177
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Absolutely. Just ask Ace!


    I won't be surprised if this goes over your head, Daniel, but here it is anyway. Its perfectly OK to have a difference of opinion in how to manage (or not manage) bees. You certainly do not have to agree with Walt's conclusions, and you can certainly point out where Walt went wrong in your opinion. Walt even invited you to do that.

    But when, in response, you start tossing out insulting epithets like "colossal idiot", and "too stupid to listen to", in reference to an experienced Beesource member who has done nothing more than provide his beekeeping observations and conclusions, you lose all credibility. And then I will post your past brilliant comments and highlight just how foolish you are.

    I can't believe you actually like looking foolish ... so why don't you change your behavior?
    Rader, Nothing I said about Stupid had anything to do with Walt. It has to do with stupid people that can't apply any thought to what they say. In fact it is not directed at anyone but would apply to anyone that makes pointless comments. Like making a thread about others opinions rather than the subject. And rather than forming a counter point simply attack the person. So what you disagree. I don't care. You think I'm an idiot because I pass on a perfectly well known bit of information. You are not calling me wrong. Except you think i am wrong in agreeing with what others have proven to be right.

    It is about like telling me you think I am arrogant, opinionated and an idiot because I believe gravity exists. Okay feel free. I didn't discover it. I didn't say it exists. I just listened to the people that teach it exists and agreed with them.

    I have never seen a group so violently opposed to information. You can't attack the point. so you attack the person. Now that just wreaks with intelligence let me tell you. I am just run over with awe.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  18. #178
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    You can't attack the point. so you attack the person.
    Daniel, it is Raders way. Your going to find it very difficult responding to him with more intelligence.
    When I saw your post I knew what you were saying but I also knew it would be taken the wrong way. If you stop responding to his nonsense he will move on to somebody else.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #179
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Walt, I read your book. and to you directly I thnk you for the time and effort. I know it is not knew to you to hear that the way the book is written is confusing. I found it to be also.
    I do not question your observations. In fact I full intend to explore them for myself. In other words I believe you saw what you say you saw ans it had the repeatability that you report. What is in question and not because I say so but because conclusions are prone to error. Is what caused those behaviors you observed. I believe you have watched time and again bees remove honey from the hive and fill it with brood. this I accept as fact. What is suspect is the conclusion they are doing it to produce brood. Brood could be a side effect. And proving it one way or another could be critical. It is critical to our ability to understand the bee.
    Regardless of what anyone else said or how my comments may have struck you nerves. nothing I have said is intended to be a comment on yrou intelligence your ability to observe. It is that yoru observations have so far stopped at that. observations. and the work is far from complete. I don't think you have been given adequate consideration. I think others should be taking up on this and looking for the mechanisms. but that is just me. I don't think you can do it alone. I don't think the beekeeping as a whole will get behind you. and that is my ***** if I have one. And ti is not really a *****. I don't care if beekeepers ever figure out one more thing. If they don't and I am talking about beekeepers as a whole, it is due in large to their own ignorance. and determination to stay in the rut they are in. If anything my comments came from an unfairness that I see you are being subjected to. a justifiable one? maybe. I think beekeeping is tired of seeing one more promise of better days and then seeing nothing. or worse being punished for trying it. And you are amidst that weather you deserve it or not.

    Anyway all fo this to me is a wste of time. nobody is goign to take up a converstaion on a subject and actually chew the issue over. They jsut resort to insults. Enjoy it I will be looking for answers. I am just not comfortable with leaving you thinking my comments have been an attack on you or your observations. If you take it as so All I can ask is your forgiveness. they are not intended to be. And I can't do more than that.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #180
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post

    Anyway all fo this to me is a wste of time. nobody is goign to take up a converstaion on a subject and actually chew the issue over. They jsut resort to insults. Enjoy it I will be looking for answers. I am just not comfortable with leaving you thinking my comments have been an attack on you or your observations. If you take it as so All I can ask is your forgiveness. they are not intended to be. And I can't do more than that.
    and the hole is getting deeper so lets let ease up a bit !!! this 101 so KISS folks
    Ed, KA9CTT profanity is IGNORANCE made audible
    you can`t fix stupid not even with duct tape

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