Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

[BeeCurious]

Those slightly drawn out cells on the top bar are completely useless to the bees.

You might think they're significant, but the bees can't use them for brood. So Viola!

[Roland]

Mr. Palmer wrote:

So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.

Hmmmm. sounds like a page out of the old comb honey handbook, young queens don't swarm like old ones.

Crazy Roland

[Daniel Y]

On the break issue, from what I understand (that one means I have seen info take it with a grain of salt) It is the strip of wood that causes the problem. Now for the grain of salt. I have not yet sen it be a problem in my bees. Others say they have. I do know one thing that became a problem for me. about mid summer the bees filled that second deep with honey. and it became a huge pain to move it to look at the brood nest. And in fact it was enough to cause me to put off inspecting the brood nest. This is enough for me to say. no more second deep at the very least. I may keep deeps at the bottom. but it is mediums after that.

The different size frames is also a pain. But I am thinking that once a bottom deep is set up and a brood nest. I will not be moving those frames anyway.

[Michael Palmer]

I do know one thing that became a problem for me. about mid summer the bees filled that second deep with honey. and it became a huge pain to move it to look at the brood nest. And in fact it was enough to cause me to put off inspecting the brood nest.

Would another super or two have been appropriate, so that mid-summer honey went in the supers and not in the broodnest?

[Michael Palmer]

Mr. Palmer wrote:

So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.

Hmmmm. sounds like a page out of the old comb honey handbook, young queens don't swarm like old ones.

Crazy Roland

Yes, no?

[Daniel Y]

Michael, I don't really know. With only having had one hive. I have only seen the one situation. I don't have a lot of seeing other things that might happen.

I started with a strong 5 frame nuc. I put it in a 10 frame deep body. I don't know if you have read my description of what I did in other threads on this group. but basically over the next couple of weeks I did a manipulation of the frames even in this bottom deep at first. basically it seemed to me that the bees took to drawing comb in empty foundation better. The result is I saw the brood nest expand very well. As soon as the foundation in the lower box was mostly drawn. I added the second deep. IT was all foundation at this time. again I moved some fraems from the lower deep up to the second in order to encourage them to move up. they did. so did the queen. As the bees drew out this second set of 10 frames the queen filled no fewer than 7 of them with brood. but then she moved back down to the lower box.

Should I have added another super on top at this time? The reason I ask is that as soon as the brood emerged from this upper deep. bees filled it with nectar.

I did add another box once I saw the upper deep was 80% full of honey. the bees where still slow about moving up into the third box (A med by the way).

With your comment above I am now wondering if I "Forced" my bees to store nectar in the brood nest??? I should have had that med on all along as well..

[Acebird]

I will not be moving those frames anyway.

Then you won't be checkerboarding.

[ralittlefield]

Then you won't be checkerboarding.

That's not necessarily true. I understood him to be speaking of the frames in the bottom box. Those frames are not involved in checker boarding.

[Acebird]

I did add another box once I saw the upper deep was 80% full of honey. the bees where still slow about moving up into the third box (A med by the way).

You were stymied because you could not move that deep frame of honey up into the medium box of foundation. It wasn't the bars that made the difference it was the fresh foundation. Try the same thing with all medium boxes only now you can let them build the honey cap in just the third box. Next season you can let them build a three medium brood nest and have a whopper or cut them down to a one medium brood nest. What ever the heck you want to do. You are not limited or stymied by having different sized frames.

[Michael Palmer]

Should I have added another super on top at this time? The reason I ask is that as soon as the brood emerged from this upper deep. bees filled it with nectar.

I did add another box once I saw the upper deep was 80% full of honey.

You waited too long to add a super. You should have added it when there was brood in the top box, and before the brood rearing was forced down. There's nothing wrong with mediums above deeps, and if supered correctly, you shouldn't have trouble. From what you say, there must have been a good flow. The bees drew out two deeps and filled the top one 80% before you added a super of foundation. Do you think the flow might have slowed...and that's part of the problem for why they didn't enter the super?

[Michael Palmer]

the requeening idea makes sense too. it is interesting that many of walt's hives requeen anyway, but by supercedure and without swarming.
if you are requeening your less productive hives, 'because they may have swarmed', you might be selecting for bees that swarm less.

Bees re-queen themselves in both ways...supercedure and swarming. If you prevent them from swarming...however you do it...they'll eventually supersede. I would prefer my bees didn't find it necessary to supersede every year. I wouldn't consider selecting a breeder queen without at least two year's production records. I regularly find three year old queens heading strong colonies. So colonies that supercede every year are crossed off the list of possible breeders.

I don't requeen my less productive colonies because they may have swarmed. Requeening has to be done before they swarm, and in conjunction with some other swarm control method...like making a nucleus colony with new queen. This is done when other manipulations like supering and reversing fail to stop swarm preparations.

[MattDavey]

...like making a nucleus colony with new queen. This is done when other manipulations like supering and reversing fail to stop swarm preparations.

So Michael, just so it's clear, is this your typical swarm prevention method?

1. Reverse brood boxes and add super(s).
2. Any time after, if the brood nest is being backfilled, split and make a Nuc and allow them to raise a new queen.

By the way, when do you reverse brood boxes? Is it before Apple trees first blossom?

Also, what sort of percentage of hives continue to back fill the brood nest after brood nest reversal?

Thanks
Matthew Davey

[squarepeg]

i see michael, you were talking about requeening a colony that was bent on swarming no matter what, and before they swarmed. also interested to your answers to matt's questions.

[Michael Palmer]

So Michael, just so it's clear, is this your typical swarm prevention method?

1. Reverse brood boxes and add super(s).
2. Any time after, if the brood nest is being backfilled, split and make a Nuc and allow them to raise a new queen.

By the way, when do you reverse brood boxes? Is it before Apple trees first blossom?

Also, what sort of percentage of hives continue to back fill the brood nest after brood nest reversal?

Thanks
Matthew Davey

My swarm prevention management is, as in CB, overhead nectar management. So, the first thing I do is super every colony with two mediums. This before the dandelion bloom starts. As in CB, the idea is to give the bees somewhere to store incoming nectar, so it isn't stored in the broodnest. We don't have the "honey dome" so popular in the CB dogma. With 2 deeps and a medium as my broodnests, with the broodnest at the top of the hive...I'd be CB brood. Rather I add supers, and then reverse the brood chambers at dandelion bloom. Early supering allows the bees upward expansion, and then allows additional upward expansion when the colony is reversed.

So, #1 would be super, reverse, super, super.

#2, no not like that. If a colony has started cells when I reverse, I remove all cells, reverse, and bottom super with an extracting super...lots of additional upward expansion room. This stops almost all swarm preparations. But, there are always those that want to persist....even if you make a split. These are the ones that need something more drastic. These are the ones that I woulod make a nuc from...give a laying queen, andf use the nuc to requeen the parent colony. You canh also remove the queen and leave a ripe cell as my early mentor did. That works too...if the virgin mates and returns to the hive.

Very few continue to backfill

[Daniel Y]

You waited too long to add a super. You should have added it when there was brood in the top box, and before the brood rearing was forced down. There's nothing wrong with mediums above deeps, and if supered correctly, you shouldn't have trouble. From what you say, there must have been a good flow. The bees drew out two deeps and filled the top one 80% before you added a super of foundation. Do you think the flow might have slowed...and that's part of the problem for why they didn't enter the super?

Mike, Thanks. I believe you have given me a lot of information on one of the biggest problems I saw from last year.

I had sugar water on the bees when I needed them to get 15 deep frames of foundation drawn. when I saw the second deep was 80% full, I consider brood as full also. I did add the first med. it was 10 frames of foundation no drawn comb. I removed the sugar water because I wanted whatever went into that top med to be honey. The bees simply would not move up in to that med. Had they already decided that top deep was the ceiling of their hive? the only way I enticed them to move up was to add the sugar water again. as soon as they had the first little bit of comb drawn in the med. I took the water away again. they then began to fill that med with honey. They did eventually fill it about 80% or so. I put sugar water back on them when I found this box empty later in the fall. they filled it again and I used the frames to put over to 5 frame nucs.

So I think I had a huge flow in the spring. a decent flow through most of the summer and I should have harvested that honey when I first saw it.

I see Aces point in that I could have enticed bees to move up had I had same size frames for that third box.

Frames are my biggest problem right now. and that is with getting 40 of them drawn this year in one hive. They area all spread out now and in use. Next year will again be foundation being piled on top of hives and that puts a kink in getting bees to use them just a bit.

I also think type of foundation may have been part of it. my deeps are pre wired yellow wax and the med are comb honey foundation. thin and white. Maybe the bees like the pre wired better.

[Barry]

So, the first thing I do is super every colony with two mediums.

Just to be clear, are these brood or honey supers? Excluder or no excluder? I'm guessing no excluder and honey supers?

[Daniel Y]

Barry, this is as much an answer for you as it is clarifying I understand what Michael is saying.

He has a double deep brood nest. in the spring before dandelions bloom the bees are at the top of these two boxes. so rather than mess with either box he puts two med supers on above the two deeps. When the dandelions do bloom the flow is on at least to some degree. bees are bringing in nectar. but rather than putting it in the brood nest they are putting it in the space above the brood nest.

My question at this point is what prevented the queen from moving up and laying in those top two med? Excluder, timing they just don't ??? IN my case I could not get the bees to go into the med over but I had the whole foundation thing and my timing was anything but correct.

Anyway at dandelion bloom he then goes back and reverses the two deep brood boxes. this moves the queen down away from the honey giving her room to move up but not get into the honey supers. From then on as a rule it is a matter of just keeping space in those med supers. Not always. If they insist on filling the brood nest anyway there are other measures necessary. this may have been what I saw in my hive last year and had no idea what to do with it. I was not thinking back filling. swarming etc at all. I was of the thinking all I could expect of a first year hive was for it to build up and be ready to act like bees next year.

[Barry]

My question at this point is what prevented the queen from moving up and laying in those top two med? Excluder, timing they just don't ??? IN my case I could not get the bees to go into the med over but I had the whole foundation thing and my timing was anything but correct.

This is a concern to some, but perhaps not to MP. That's why I asked him to clarify. I use SC in my brood, but not in my honey supers, so I don't want my queens to get up into my honey supers and raise brood. This will create other problems. I could see adding two medium brood chambers above the brood pre dandelion bloom. I use mediums for everything.

[MattDavey]

Thanks Michael. I assume the supers are drawn comb, not foundation?

Daniel, he said the brood nest is two deeps and a medium. So part of the brood nest is in the medium before supers are added.

Matthew Davey

[Acebird]

So, #1 would be super, reverse, super, super.

Looks like we need clarification on this:
You start off deep, deep, medium then add medium, medium. When you reverse what goes where? Do the deeps stay together or are you putting that bottom deep on top of the first medium? QE or not?