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  1. #61
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    john, i provided a drone escape by simply drilling a 3/8" hole in one of the boxes below the excluder,(if you plan on making the upper entrance the only entrance), the hole is plugged up nicely with a queen cage cork if you end up not needing it in the future.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #62
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Squarepeg I had intended to have a small hole at the bottom platform where the old entrance used to be but if that does not work out I will follow your advice
    John

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    the approach you mentioned, and joe clemens also, keeps the queen from escaping in an effort to 'prevent' swarming. are you going to try and keep your queen in?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Johno,
    Made a mistake in my normal repro c/o timing post. Normally, the end of the first week of April. This season, three weeks early, or just after mid March. In a normal season, that would be the period of backfilling the brood nest. As long as I've been doing this, still have to stop and think about the 3 week periods (brood cycle) of the swarm process.

    I agree with your reaction to Ace's recommendation to move to all mediums. Converting some of your honey supers to brood boxes would be taking a giant step backwards. You mention the weight thing, but that's not but part of the advantages of your single deep.
    Off topic, here.
    Walt

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    considering those three weeks walt, i was close here this year. my hives swarmed from easter sunday, or april 8, until the last week in april, about a three week span.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 11-18-2012 at 01:51 AM. Reason: correction in time period
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    206

    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Walt I do prefer the deep bottom box, but was considering the weight of an 8 frme deep full of honey which is pretty heavy for an old reprobate like me, but does not apply to a brood box. As for the swarming impulse I started removing queens and frames and made nuc's from hives preparing to swarm around March 22 and continued doing the same untill the end of april with the 7 hives I had. Fearing winter losses I had ordered 2 packages from Georgia so those were hived on March 23. However the 9full hives I then had cast swarms from May thru August when the 2 new packages swarmed, fortunately I caught all but 1 which settled some 30 feet up in a nearby tree. So I really need to get a handle on this swarming thing
    John

  7. #67
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    Walt I do prefer the deep bottom box, but was considering the weight of an 8 frme deep full of honey which is pretty heavy for an old reprobate like me,
    It is too heavy for you to lift and you are having issues with swarming, so tell me again why you like it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #68
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    206

    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Brian I do not have any deep supers so I do not have any to lift, as for swarming you mean to tell me with all medium boxes you will not have swarming issues? I prefer the deep on the bottom with 2 med supers of stores for a winter config. and I find the Queen tends to go down into the deep come spring time

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    Brian I do not have any deep supers so I do not have any to lift, as for swarming you mean to tell me with all medium boxes you will not have swarming issues? I prefer the deep on the bottom with 2 med supers of stores for a winter config. and I find the Queen tends to go down into the deep come spring time
    johno, that's how i am configuring here in on a ridgetop in northeast alabama.

    the cool thing about that is, and if you've done away with your excluder,

    you can move that first super down below the deep after your spring harvest, while adding emptie(s) on top.

    your fall harvest removes that top one, and the one now on bottom gets moved up in late winter as the red maples start to bloom, and is checkerboarded with the remaining honey in the super that overwintered on top.

    anyway, that's one approach if using a single deep and medium supers.

    edit: i think walt referred to as 'a half a_____ reversal?
    Last edited by squarepeg; 11-18-2012 at 11:45 AM. Reason: added edit
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #70
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Squarepeg I only harvest honey here in july, so my first super will still have brood in it. A second flow in october is very small and can hardly provide winter stores so not much chance of a second harvest
    John

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    yep, it's when the first super has brood in it that you move it down. don't worry, you'll get a lot more honey once you get some drawn comb.

    i did my last harvest mid september. that left the goldenrod and other fall blooms for the bees.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,585

    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    While I agree with the premise that backfilling of the broodnest is the main trigger for swarming, this happens because there is no overhead nectar storage space. The incoming nectar can't be put anywhere else...either there are no supers on, or not enough. Surely CB helps correct this problem, as does reversing, opening the broodnest.

    But, there's another reason for swarming...aside from the repro swarm theory. Not all colonies are the same and they don't all march to the same drummer. Some colonies use swarming to requeen themselves. Oh oh...that aught to get him going...

    Don't believe it? Is the propensity to swarm not genetic?? Are we not told that colonies with young queens will have a lower propensity to swarm? Didn't Root say that Caucasians would swarm at the drop of a hat...while he was at church? Don't Carniolans swarm more readily that Italians? Swarmed out when the Italians are just starting swarm preps? Aren't Russians just about the most swarmy thing you ever did see?

    I find that some colonies don't respond to any anti-manipulations. CB them, split them, open the broodnest...as soon as they re-build their populations, they start swarm preparations again...even when the theoretical repro c/o date has passed. Now I've said it again...

    So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.

  13. #73
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Micheal, It can be true that swarming is genetic and still caused by multiple reasons. Genetic does not mean just two genes. there can be multiple gens that cause swarming and each would look different and happen for different reasons. Now I don't know one thing about the genes in a bee that effect swarming behavior. but I suspect it is not just a swarm or don't swarm situation. not in a bee that has 19 genes that determine sex alone.

    So their very well could be a backfilled gene. a I wanna reproduce gene. and I just want to live in a different neighborhood gene.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    as for swarming you mean to tell me with all medium boxes you will not have swarming issues?
    No, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is if all your equipment is the same you have less of a problem with inventory. If you have less of a problem with inventory you now have the ability to try checkerboarding or any other manipulation. You don't need drawn comb for supers but you do need drawn comb for checkerboarding. I know Walt says it is a big deal to have the break between combs. Shave a 1/4 off the bottom of the second medium and there is no break. The bees will make it one. Now the two mediums on the bottom is your deep that you prefer. Make some 1/4 inch shims if you want to use that box somewhere else.
    I haven't ever done checkerboarding up here because I think there is a risk in northern regions. It is my experience for everything else beekeeping all mediums is way easier and I see no evidence that the bees care about that break between frames.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    but I suspect...
    Is that the same as "I think" said a different way?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #76
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,754

    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Shave a 1/4 off the bottom of the second medium and there is no break. The bees will make it one. Now the two mediums on the bottom is your deep that you prefer. Make some 1/4 inch shims if you want to use that box somewhere else.
    This is one of the poorest suggestions I've read today. But, it's only 9:41 am
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    In a way I agree. The suggestion was made as though no one would take it but it does eliminate the issue of a break between combs if that is a real issue. If one was in the experimenting mode you could set up equal number of hives with the break as those without a break using all medium equipment.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #78
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    There is still the "break " in comb created by the top bar, and bottom bar...
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  19. #79
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    While I agree with the premise that backfilling of the broodnest is the main trigger for swarming, this happens because there is no overhead nectar storage space. The incoming nectar can't be put anywhere else...either there are no supers on, or not enough. Surely CB helps correct this problem, as does reversing, opening the broodnest.

    But, there's another reason for swarming...aside from the repro swarm theory. Not all colonies are the same and they don't all march to the same drummer. Some colonies use swarming to requeen themselves. Oh oh...that aught to get him going...

    Don't believe it? Is the propensity to swarm not genetic?? Are we not told that colonies with young queens will have a lower propensity to swarm? Didn't Root say that Caucasians would swarm at the drop of a hat...while he was at church? Don't Carniolans swarm more readily that Italians? Swarmed out when the Italians are just starting swarm preps? Aren't Russians just about the most swarmy thing you ever did see?

    I find that some colonies don't respond to any anti-manipulations. CB them, split them, open the broodnest...as soon as they re-build their populations, they start swarm preparations again...even when the theoretical repro c/o date has passed. Now I've said it again...

    So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.
    lots of good stuff there michael, many thanks.

    i also see cb'ing as a variation on the theme of ways to not let them run out of room.

    the requeening idea makes sense too. it is interesting that many of walt's hives requeen anyway, but by supercedure and without swarming.

    and yes, from what i've read, swarming propensity can vary in the same way propilization and other traits can.

    (and there's no doubt that swarming from the bee's point of view means 'success!')

    if you are requeening your less productive hives, 'because they may have swarmed', you might be selecting for bees that swarm less.

    that, and maybe requeening caught swarms makes sense if one is concerned about swarming.

    i'm ok with letting some colonies go into the woods, they can pay me back with drones.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    There is still the "break " in comb created by the top bar, and bottom bar...
    http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/v...eadHive014.jpg

    I am sorry I don’t have a picture of the comb that was under this frame but I think most people can see the semicircle shape of the top frame and can believe if I say the bottom frame was another semicircle just like the top. The bees didn’t care that there were bars in the middle.
    I conclude that two mediums are no different than one deep based on my experience. Bees are not that fussy. Your bees might be but I doubt it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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